Attention all those on Sub-q injections

[Vforcer2]

Your math looks correct to me. Hope it turns out well for you.

Good. I just got the Cyp and injected .25cc into the top of the thigh like Phil does. I started to do it in the belly, but it was too painful there with a 27 gauge needle.

 

[Vforcer2]

Phil and/or John,

Since I have injected today, Friday, my next injection should be Monday, and then Thursday. Is that accurate?

 

[pmgamer18]

Phil and/or John,

Since I have injected today, Friday, my next injection should be Monday, and then Thursday. Is that accurate?

Yes I mark in on in my planer and what side.

 

[JackBauer]

His goal is free T but he arrives at what total T you would need to get to his goal of 160 pg/ml of free T using the nomogram he has. Then he just tests for total T and E2 routinely. I don't know why he doesnt just test for free T but there must be a reason. Maybe because the tests vary from lab to lab. I know Phils free T number is totally different from mine. It must be a different type of test, it has different ranges completely.

I asked him once. As I recall, and I could be wrong here...

He said that accuracy of free T is a problem, that it was better to measure total T and E2, and free T will follow total T. Later when labs improve, and overall wellness improves, then he would test more... Like DHT, etc...

I believe he also mentioned to me (as I questioned him) that he doesn't emphasize the T/E2 ratio as he once did. (At least as much as he once did)

Now if only Novarel would work for me...

 

[JanSz]

I am going to keep this as my reference:

Testing for FreeT is unreliable and should not be done to avoid cost and confusion.
FreeT (and BioavailableT) should be calculated.
For why it is unreliable, read here:
http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/reprint/86/6/2903.pdf
-----------------------------
Dr Shippen uses nomogram.
His goal is to end up at FreeT=160 (100-250)
starting with ##'s for existing SHBG the nomogram figures required Total T
The link below is to a calculator that works the same as the chart, if one assumes Albumin=4.3
Usually that is close enough.
http://www.issam.ch/freetesto.htm
Second page of calculator gives details for mathematically /chemically inclined.
http://www.issam.ch/freetesuit.htm
It also lists the reference paper that is same as in the chart.
To facilitate units conversion, it is good to have this:
http://www.get-back-on-track.com/en/tools/umrechner.php
Looking at reference paper one notes that it was written in 1999, but actually it is based on science level of 1990 (specially about SHBG).
------------------------------
This paper, written in 2006, discuses FreeT and Bio-Available-T in light of discovery that SHBG is build differently than thought of in 1990.
-------http://www.atypon-link.com/WDG/doi/pdf/10.1515/JLM.2006.050
Other than understanding the issue little better I am not able to make use of their recommended charts, they are of too small resolution. Wish there was a calculator similar to above posted but based on this new science, (hint, hint).
I take three values from this paper.
Table 2, 10 healthy young men , BAT level=5.5(nmol/L)
Table 4, 10 male control subjects, FT level=199(pmol/L)
and (most disturbing)
CalcV was reported to overestimate BAT by a factor of 1.5–2.2
========================================================
I am assuming that one (who believes in the above)
would really set as a goal his BioAvailableT (and let the FreeT just be "close enough", all that while using TotalT as means to do calculations).
========================================================
When blood testing, only QuestDiagnostic have a one proper test for BAT and FreeT.
(Note that they do not do assay to arrive at the numbers, they calculate them,
it is spelled in that link).
One have to be careful however, because they actually push the other (wrong) test,
they just try to recoup money for the equipment they purchased.
http://www.questdiagnostics.com/hcp/topics/endo/testosterone.html?endo
ask for:
FreeT, Bioavailable, and Total Testosterone.
Those who cannot use Quest should just make sure that they secure TT, SHBG, Albumin from same blood draw, and use the calculator to get the FreeT and BioavailableT
--------------------------------------
Ranges are here, (just do not use the middle two columns.
http://www.questdiagnostics.com/hcp/intguide/EndoMetab/Gen_Misc/Testosterone/Table 1.pdf
--------------------------------------
Tests that they do:
http://www.questdiagnostics.com/hcp...age.jsp?fn=hcp_ig_testnames_Endocrinology.htm
--------------------------------------
EndoManual 3rdEd 2004
http://www.questdiagnostics.com/hcp/intguide/EndoMetab/EndoManual_3rdEd_2004.pdf

Merc Manual
http://www.merck.com/mmpe/index.html

Link to chart (how to make it appear with in message?)

.

 

[FYI777]

"Only water based injections are to be administered sub-cutaneously (sq).
Oily injections and water based suspensions are only to be injected intra-muscularly"

Saw this yesterday on another site. Anyone know the reasoning of this?

 

[Vforcer2]

"Only water based injections are to be administered sub-cutaneously (sq).
Oily injections and water based suspensions are only to be injected intra-muscularly"

Saw this yesterday on another site. Anyone know the reasoning of this?

Just a different line of thinking. I would think water based spike E2 and DHT levels since there is no ester to slow them down. Plus I bet they would need to be done daily.

 

[FYI777]

Shippen does his SQ injects then with the depot test then yes?

Or does he do it with the water based?

 

[Vforcer2]

Shippen does his SQ injects then with the depot test then yes?

Or does he do it with the water based?

Shippen does his with depot t/cypionate I am told.

 

[FYI777]

Thanks,V frame #14 confirms this just was lazy I guess.

You didn't say if you tried the prop SQ and if you did was it painful?

Endo says at first sus. was good, then says no good so I guess no good,eh?

SUB-CUTANEOUS INJECTIONS (SQ)

( not sure if picture copies)

 

[Vforcer2]

I am using T Cypionate, just like Phil, John, and Shippen. NOT Propionate due to it being to short acting of an ester, and research bearing out it is painful and irratating at the injection site. Shorter acting esters will defeat our purpose of keeping peaks and valleys minimal. We want a nice gental ride up and as the ester begins its decent we will inject again.

I am not sure what you were saying here:
" Endo says at first sus. was good, then says no good so I guess no good,eh?"

Your picture did not upload.

 

[Andrew Androgen]

Did sub-q testosterone cypionate 50mg every 3 days in a 25 gauge 1/2 inch needle with a 3mil syringe.

That worked well and did not spike the levels to bad. But over time the blood levels would continue to rise till you have to fight excess estrogen and all the side effects like bloating etc.

Now i do sub-q testsoterone suspension 12 mg every other day in a 30 gauge 5/8 inch insulin syringe. And add some testosterone/dhea/progesteorne cream every other day.

So far i can control my levels exactly. The key is to not over due the testosterone suspension as it has a half life of 24 hours.

EndoMan, do you use water based test suspension or oil based?

 

[EndoMan]

EndoMan, do you use water based test suspension or oil based?

Water based testosterone. Just got my labs back. Was at 1075 range 200-1200

Feel great, my Endo was pissed at me for having such a high number. Said he could lose his licsense, want's to work with me but will drop me if i keep it that high.

Am using the water based testosterone sub-q and some cream with testosterone, dhea, and progesterone. Never felt this good for 25 years it seems, and my Doc is all pissed, funny stuff.

Only side effect is that i am getting some acne, so i am cutting back a bit. No bloat at all.

I bought the powders and make my own creams and injections. Going try at some point testosterone no ester (TNE) in oil, not water.

 

[FYI777]

You probably got tested close to when you did your inject (like same day).

 

[Vforcer2]

I have been playing with this software tool http://bulkmuscle.com/pct/ and it is cool to be able to tweak dosages to see how the half life of the ester and dosage frequency projects onto a graph. It looks like if I inject 50 mg E3D that it would take about 38 days to achieve stable constant levels.

Taking into consideration that I have already done one 50 mg injection and make the next two injectons 60 mg then back onto 50 mg thereafter I can achieve those levels in about 17 days. I did this using the tapering feature of the software.

I do wonder if expediting this process would cause e2 problems.

 

[pmgamer18]

I have been playing with this software tool http://bulkmuscle.com/pct/ and it is cool to be able to tweak dosages to see how the half life of the ester and dosage frequency projects onto a graph. It looks like if I inject 50 mg E3D that it would take about 38 days to achieve stable constant levels.

Taking into consideration that I have already done one 50 mg injection and make the next two injectons 60 mg then back onto 50 mg thereafter I can achieve those levels in about 17 days. I did this using the tapering feature of the software.

I do wonder if expediting this process would cause e2 problems.

If your all ready stable you don't see this happen I went from weekly shots to E3D and the only thing that changed on my tests was E2 went down. If you stable now thats it.

 

[JustOne]

I have been playing with this software tool http://bulkmuscle.com/pct/ and it is cool to be able to tweak dosages to see how the half life of the ester and dosage frequency projects onto a graph. It looks like if I inject 50 mg E3D that it would take about 38 days to achieve stable constant levels.

Taking into consideration that I have already done one 50 mg injection and make the next two injectons 60 mg then back onto 50 mg thereafter I can achieve those levels in about 17 days. I did this using the tapering feature of the software.

I do wonder if expediting this process would cause e2 problems.

Due to the misinfomation about half lifes on the internet, that tool is innacurate.

 

[Vforcer2]

Due to the misinfomation about half lifes on the internet, that tool is innacurate.

How about providing us the correct half lives Obi One.

 

[1cc]

I have been playing with this software tool http://bulkmuscle.com/pct/ and it is cool to be able to tweak dosages to see how the half life of the ester and dosage frequency projects onto a graph. It looks like if I inject 50 mg E3D that it would take about 38 days to achieve stable constant levels.

Taking into consideration that I have already done one 50 mg injection and make the next two injectons 60 mg then back onto 50 mg thereafter I can achieve those levels in about 17 days. I did this using the tapering feature of the software.

I do wonder if expediting this process would cause e2 problems.

Use this calculator. http://www.roidcalc.com/

Front loading a customized initial dosage will speed up the time to achieve stable T levels. Since you have already started injecting, it will be more difficult to calculate at this point. Also, doing SubQ may give different results than IM ( your levels may go much higher/lower than expected). To err on the side of caution is best.

 

[1cc]

I"m on .8 cc of 100 mg/cc Tcyp. My Tcyp is compounded....

Are all Shippens patients on the 100mg/ml strength T Cyp? Is there any reason that he did not use the 200mg/ml strength?