Bloods on a cruise

[Burrr]

Your timeline was a little confusing to us. Dbol for six weeks, lots of test, and then some anavar. Then a month off and now blood work. I think what you are scene is still liver stress from all of those orals. While you contemplate your next cycle I would leave orals out of it

 

[Mayne]

Your timeline was a little confusing to us. Dbol for six weeks, lots of test, and then some anavar. Then a month off and now blood work. I think what you are scene is still liver stress from all of those orals. While you contemplate your next cycle I would leave orals out of it

In all honesty it could still be repairing from my anavar which I had up until a month ago so there is that, I planned on waiting another month anyway for my MK to have kicked in

 

[Marcus]

LOL dude I never ran dbol for more than 6 weeks like I clearly said in the op (1st 6 weeks) of my 6 month blast I came off of anavar rather recently tho

Lol lol!! I read that like 3 times and kept reading it wrong I guess. Hahaha, sorry man

But yes, I agree with @Burrr that the orals are the reason for enzymes still being elevated in general. I was thinking damn dude... you're going to go into liver failure!

 

[XmadXscientist]

No offense but how can a med scientist claim exercise does not change liver values
Muscular exercise can cause highly pathological liver function tests in healthy men
And I have considered tudca or other liver supplements if my bilirubin and ggt come high too

None taken. I said it should have virtually no effect, and the reason being is your a highly trained individual that's been doing this for years so your body adjust and what's past the point of training vs destruction is far far higher for you than a normal person. The study you post took 14 normal males who had done exercise before but had NO routine and were not currently training on a regular basis. They then put them through a strenuous full body workout that they would never do. This stressed there bodies and put them into a state of rhabdymylosis according to one of the indicators stated by the study authors which results in elevations of all enzymes discussed in the study and would explain extreme elevations of cpk and liver enzymes, it's a terrible condition and we're seeing it constantly where I work because new people with limited exercise experience are joining cross fit gyms and being pushed beyond their capabilities.

I have the ability to test myself for most chemistry and hemo values whenever I feel like it and my liver enzymes are always within range unless I'm using an oral steroid. Sometimes when I feel really rundown I'll test my cpk and that's been extremely elevated to the point my doctor thought something was wrong until she snapped to and realized I train excessively.

 

[XmadXscientist]

Define "to high", before beginning a supplement that won't do squat, less a wallet biopsy.

Which supplement do you think is garbage?

 

[Mayne]

None taken. I said it should have virtually no effect, and the reason being is your a highly trained individual that's been doing this for years so your body adjust and what's past the point of training vs destruction is far far higher for you than a normal person. The study you post took 14 normal males who had done exercise before but had NO routine and were not currently training on a regular basis. They then put them through a strenuous full body workout that they would never do. This stressed there bodies and put them into a state of rhabdymylosis according to one of the indicators stated by the study authors which results in elevations of all enzymes discussed in the study and would explain extreme elevations of cpk and liver enzymes, it's a terrible condition and we're seeing it constantly where I work because new people with limited exercise experience are joining cross fit gyms and being pushed beyond their capabilities.

I have the ability to test myself for most chemistry and hemo values whenever I feel like it and my liver enzymes are always within range unless I'm using an oral steroid. Sometimes when I feel really rundown I'll test my cpk and that's been extremely elevated to the point my doctor thought something was wrong until she snapped to and realized I train excessively.

For one I agree with you the study is not linked directly to individuals of our kind but you can check this one that says exactly what I posted a few comments back that muscular type of people have even further raised levels of transaminase enzymes because it is not like our muscles are not subjects of inflammation caused by weight lifting like those of others unlike us hence why I firmly believe it is at least in part a cause

Transaminase Levels and Vigorous Exercise

 

[XmadXscientist]

For one I agree with you the study is not linked directly to individuals of our kind but you can check this one that says exactly what I posted a few comments back that muscular type of people have even further raised levels of transaminase enzymes because it is not like our muscles are not subjects of inflammation caused by weight lifting like those of others unlike us hence why I firmly believe it is at least in part a cause

Transaminase Levels and Vigorous Exercise

Cpk is the enzyme most commonly elevated as a result of muscle damage due to training. This process has little effect on the liver unless you've truly caused real muscle damage and myoglobin is being released into your circulation. This would cause elevation in liver enzymes as it's very damaging to the whole body and people can die from it.

The second "study" you just posted is a Q & A between two individuals with no studies to support their position linked in the article. I've run my bloods multiple time and two friends who train with the same frequency. I've never seen more than a 20% rise over baseline values. This a small sample size though. Your values are double the maximum normal, that is a high value. How many days per week do you train and how many hours? Do you have a cpk value that I missed?

 

[Mayne]

Cpk is the enzyme most commonly elevated as a result of muscle damage due to training. This process has little effect on the liver unless you've truly caused real muscle damage and myoglobin is being released into your circulation. This would cause elevation in liver enzymes as it's very damaging to the whole body and people can die from it.

The second "study" you just posted is a Q & A between two individuals with no studies to support their position linked in the article. I've run my bloods multiple time and two friends who train with the same frequency. I've never seen more than a 20% rise over baseline values. This a small sample size though. Your values are double the maximum normal, that is a high value. How many days per week do you train and how many hours? Do you have a cpk value that I missed?

I haven't done CPK actually but I could on my next lab also I work out 6 days a week different amounts of time but I do mostly compounds and in powerlifting/powerbuilding manner my friend who is a competitor told me his values came back the same on just clenbuterol and the owner of our gym said he has had it happen to him many times and he is rather old

 

[Dr JIM]

Which supplement do you think is garbage?

Prophylactic "liver protectors" for starters ---- but did I post "garbage"

Not, as these compounds are doing a wonderful job lining the pockets of manufactures and I'll betcha they don't believe their products are "garbage".

Ah heck I'm sure you can find multiple rat studies or some evidence these supps MAY BE helpful in those with preexisting liver disease (such as primary biliary cirrhosis) but as PROPHYLACTIC LIVER PROTECTORS --- good luck with that search.

 

[Dr JIM]

- I haven't done CPK

- my friend

- owner of our gym

More anecdotal info that's hardly evidenced based

Good luck with the liver supps

 

[XmadXscientist]

I haven't done CPK actually but I could on my next lab also I work out 6 days a week different amounts of time but I do mostly compounds and in powerlifting/powerbuilding manner my friend who is a competitor told me his values came back the same on just clenbuterol and the owner of our gym said he has had it happen to him many times and he is rather old

Next time I would get the cpk too just to correlate. Powerlifting is a pretty demanding on the body and 6 days of it might be slowing recovery.

 

[XmadXscientist]

Prophylactic "liver protectors" for starters ---- but did I post "garbage"

Not, as these compounds are doing a wonderful job lining the pockets of manufactures and I'll betcha they don't believe their products are "garbage".

Ah heck I'm sure you can find multiple rat studies or some evidence these supps MAY BE helpful in those with preexisting liver disease (such as primary biliary cirrhosis) but as PROPHYLACTIC LIVER PROTECTORS --- good luck with that search.

Never said garbage just that they were good for lining pockets. Was curious to your thoughts because you use evidence based practice to support your views.

 

[Dr JIM]

you use evidence based practice to support your views.

I try when possible but that's not always the case, by any means, since the substances involved include PEDs many of which are void of direct or indirect evidence based studies.

For those special occasions I believe the second best option is to use folk I can trust, are familiar with the "in's and outs" of evidence based data and will provide unbiased anecdotal info such as @mands and @brutus79 and @Docd187123 to name a few.

Jim

 

[Dr JIM]

Oh and I must mention another Meso member, @CBS, who is has done much to ensure this forum remains evidence based.

However he's most proficient at ridding this forum of "rats" that tend to invade uncensored forums.

 

[Mayne]

Okay and yeah I will update you on my next lab in a few days if I have time cause I am a bit busy lately but I also have to do an igf-1 test before I start MK6 what else would be nice to do I am thinking bilirubin and cpk, ggt also

I mean no offense doc but you contradict yourself a lot sometimes, 1st anecdotal info is irrelevant now you would trust particular people, what makes you think my friends are not worthy of trust? 1 is an oly lifter, powerlifter medalist and currently a bodybuilder and the other is an IFBB representative in my country as much as I respect all those you mentioned I also respect people I know

And you seem to have missed I have bloods on hand and linked to studies and discussion with a professional doctor on the subject of elevated transaminase enzymes in athletes too all that being said until my later bloods come in I can only wonder what's up and still after having read further research conducted by John Meadows I am even more suspicious of whether even CPK is any more indicative of liver disease or not

Appreciated your contribution tho

 

[Dr JIM]

Okay and yeah I will update you on my next lab in a few days if I have time cause I am a bit busy lately but I also have to do an igf-1 test before I start MK6 what else would be nice to do I am thinking bilirubin and cpk, ggt also

I mean no offense doc but you contradict yourself a lot sometimes, 1st anecdotal info is irrelevant now you would trust particular people, what makes you think my friends are not worthy of trust? 1 is an oly lifter, powerlifter medalist and currently a bodybuilder and the other is an IFBB representative in my country as much as I respect all those you mentioned I also respect people I know

And you seem to have missed I have bloods on hand and linked to studies and discussion with a professional doctor on the subject of elevated transaminase enzymes in athletes too all that being said until my later bloods come in I can only wonder what's up and still after having read further research conducted by John Meadows I am even more suspicious of whether even CPK is any more indicative of liver disease or not

Appreciated your contribution tho

Try reading my posts understanding the CONTEXT of the comments.

I anecdotal reports are relatively worthless when discussing hepatic metabolic derangement's as a result of exercise bc theres plenty of evidence describing such changes.

So when U cite the experiences of " friend, gym owner, relative, your cat or dog" it too adds next to nothing to a conversation and thats no contradiction

To that end its obvious you don't understand how to use data, so old it can be located in physiology textbooks, in a practical manner, so let me simplify it for you.

When cells are injured they tend to "leak" their enzymes into the bloodstream and while CPK is found in LARGE quantities in muscle, very little is present within hepatocytes. Conversely ALT and AST are present in sufficient quantities in both myocytes and hepatocytes.

Consequently as I mentioned in my first post, a CPK level helps differentiate toxin related hepatic injury from exercise induced SKM injury bc it provides info on the SOURCE of these changes. And since you didn't obtain a CPK level there is no way of KNOWING for sure.

But I'll "contradict" myself one more time; I'd suggest you start those hepatic supplements ASAP, lol

 

[Mayne]

And then if this scenario happens I have to read it like what

High AST
High ALT
High CPK

I am nearly certain my CPK will come high and that's exactly why I asked what other labs I need to determine liver health like bilirubin or ggt if you don't mind that I ask that and to not only ask to be given let me give something back to you consider and have is not at all the same thank you

 

[Dr JIM]

When cells are injured they tend to "leak" their enzymes into the bloodstream and while CPK is found in LARGE quantities in muscle, very little is present within hepatocytes. Conversely ALT and AST are present in sufficient quantities in both myocytes and hepatocytes.

Asked and answered

 

[Mayne]

Does that answer it if they all come high does high CPK automatically mean there is no liver issue present or do I need further labs like the 2 I mentioned above

 

[Burrr]

Just quit taking orals,
Liver will be happy