Building muscle with low T

[bbrsimon50]

So I'm 38 years old I've been lifting weights recreationally for around 13 years. I started to try and get more serious about it 5 years ago. I was tracking macros and experimenting with different programs. And I don't mean I was program jumping, I was giving different styles an honest try for at least 12 months at a time.

It seemed no matter what I tried I stayed relatively weak and didnt see much change in my body.
I topped out at a 225 5x5 on bench and my squat and deadlift numbers were too embarrassing to even mention.

I've never been a big eater, but I decided I'd better add fuel to my body and went on an 8 month bulk. I cant remember exactly, but I was eating something like 210p 400c and 80f for a total of 3200 calories. I did get slightly stronger, but one day 17 months ago I looked in the mirror and saw a fat, weak 6'1" 225 lb slob. Balloon face and all.

I gave up on everything. The diet, quit the gym for a few months and just took a break. I lost 15 lbs just by eating what and when I wanted.

I learned through a Joe Rogan podcast about traumatic brain injuries and the effect they can have on hormones and Test levels and what that can do for your well being. It struck a chord, since I've rode a lot of dirtbike and took several hits to the head. Ive woke up laying in the dirt on a race track several times. I've also battled with depression and alcoholism my whole life. I have, however been sober since a life changing experience in November 2011.

So I started on my journey looking into trt. I had my test levels checked and over 4 separate blood samples in the course of 2 or 3 weeks, they came back averaging somewhere around 250. I found an endo who prescribed me 100 mg test e every 10 days. It changed my life. Very quickly I noticed changes in my mental state, along with changes in my body. I did an short run of 350 test e/ week and saw amazing results. I've since had my test prescription bumped to 120mg/ week. I also ran into some e2 problems and side effects, but have since been working on my AI protocol and have eliminated those.

I know that on this forum this won't be at all impressive, but I have squatted 315 and pulled 405. I was really happy to hit those numbers.

The point of this is that while I was training with my natural test levels I was desperately trying to sift through advice and choose what made sense and saw little effect. I always heard experienced people say to take your natural training and nutrition as far as possible then when you are ready think about gear. The advice was that if you aren't making progress there is obviously a problem with your training, your nutrition or both. Nobody ever mentions having your hormones checked.

My experience has been that no matter what I did, it didn't matter. I now believe that i never would have made any progress without trt. I've been dieting and I'm down to a reasonably lean 194, I'm as strong as I've ever been and though it is a lot of work (the doctors I've been seeing have been of no real help at all) it's totally worth it.

Has anybody else been through this? Do you believe that with test levels in the range that mine were somebody could actually make real gains? What's your experience with low T been?

 

[Eman]

Yes, you can make a lot of progress even with low test levels. The catch is that you tend to need to offset the hormone issues with the most optimal diet and exercise plan possible. At a certain point, you can only go so far though... That goes for people with low testosterone or normal testosterone levels.

Glad it worked out so well for you.

 

[bbrsimon50]

Yes, you can make a lot of progress even with low test levels. The catch is that you tend to need to offset the hormone issues with the most optimal diet and exercise plan possible. At a certain point, you can only go so far though... That goes for people with low testosterone or normal testosterone levels.

Glad it worked out so well for you.

I get it. And I did make some progress naturally. But guys run gear to get their levels up and grow. So i was wondering if someone with natural levels of 250 would peak long before someone with natural levels of say 700. It makes sense in my mind that they would.

 

[weighted chinup]

So i was wondering if someone with natural levels of 250 would peak long before someone with natural levels of say 700. It makes sense in my mind that they would.

Negligible. The difference within physiological ranges for muscle building are absolutely negligible. 350ng/dl - 750ng/dl will probably produce similar results all other factors remaining the exact same.

You have to remember, natural test production fluctuates and changes throughout the day. Not only does synthetic test at supra-physiological dosages increase test dramatically more than the low end of normal vs the high end of normal, it does so consistently throughout the day (at least, compared to natural production).

 

[Eman]

I get it. And I did make some progress naturally. But guys run gear to get their levels up and grow. So i was wondering if someone with natural levels of 250 would peak long before someone with natural levels of say 700. It makes sense in my mind that they would.

If they're both doing everything the same, I don't think you'd see a tremendous difference.

Interestingly, I bet if the person with lower testosterone knew that he had lower test levels, he'd begin to progress more slowly. Power of the mind... I've seen so many guys come here to meso convinced that they are suffering from low T because the symptoms describe just about everyone at some point or another. Even guys with proven normal test levels will still be convinced they're too low.

Guys put so much weight into bigger test numbers. It's just a number, there is a lot more to it than that number.

 

[bbrsimon50]

Negligible. The difference within physiological ranges for muscle building are absolutely negligible. 350ng/dl - 750ng/dl will probably produce similar results all other factors remaining the exact same.

You have to remember, natural test production fluctuates and changes throughout the day. Not only does synthetic test at supra-physiological dosages increase test dramatically more than the low end of normal vs the high end of normal, it does so consistently throughout the day (at least, compared to natural production).

Well I know for myself, personally my trt dose had me at 1000 ng/dl and the difference in my body is unbelievable. All things are pretty much equal. I have been maybe a tad bit more strict with my diet, but I'm convinced I would have Never seen the results I'm getting now if i hadn't jumped on the trt train. And this was since last July, like I said.

 

[GlennMarsh]

Bundle of ideas and tips shared in this forum for beginners and newbies. Such fitness mojo posts are very helpful.

 

[mindgame1516]

I was at 185ng of total T and me free t was non existent 4.7ng. I've been an athlete all my life and before every cycling I was a pretty easy gainer. Being in my mid 30s and laid off the gear for years I found it almost impossible to hit the gym more then 3x a week and couldn't really get through full workouts because my body was always shot halfway through and felt like I still wasent recovered. My energy and motivation was so low for a few years I didn't even think about it. Just thought I'm getting old. Finally it got to the point where literally anything physically that I did I would have to lay down after and would be drained for days.

I went and got a hormone panel check and my labs were what I stated above. Prior to that the year before when I got lab work I never even bother to look at my test levels I just heard the Dr say everything is OK. My total was 275ng. It was also in a similar ball park the year before.

I started trt through the Dr at 100mg test cyp 1x a week. 8 week I did lab work on day 7 and my total t was even lower 171ng and free T went up to 6.2ng I was shocked. The Dr didn't want me doing multiple inj. A week and wanted me to stay 1x week and go up to 150. I switched to an online clinic and they started me at 200mg. I do 3x a week .3ml.

Ita been 3 months and feel a million times. I can workout full workouts and still be ok the next day with out dragging my feet and feel so mentally cloudy. That was the biggest issue I think of my low t. I felt so mentally and physically drained all the time, I honestly started seeing a psych thinking I might be bi-polar or something. I was getting really depressed bc I had no clue what was wrong with me.

I no longer feel like I'm bi-polar, or lifeless all the time. I can feel great after workouts and can hit the gym 5x a week and still go out and enjoy my life with out feeling drained. Don't get me wrong, their are still days where yeah, I fucking overworked myself, or I am tired. I'm by no means a machine. But I can say I have seen a tremendous improvement in not only the gym but the overall quality of my life. I am definitely grateful for some of out medical treatments.

My only concern is that I don't have kids yet and fear the day where I have to stop for 3-6 months and jump on clomid and hcg. I've tried clomid and I hate it, hate it ,hate it. It makes me feel 10x worse and one moody bastard. But I guess until then, then I'll worry..

 

[Switcher]

I have had it all my adult life. Still conceived, twice. It only takes 1.

 

[Megadick3000]

I've tried clomid and I hate it, hate it ,hate it. It makes me feel 10x worse and one moody bastard. But I guess until then, then I'll worry..

Pro tip bro: Tamoxifen can be used instead of Clomid. Yes, im talking for PCT.

Clomid rekts some guys, for those guys i always recommend tamoxifen instead, same benefit for
PCT As clomid but without the emo side effects.

Im still amazed how few guys out there know that tamoxifen is just as good for HPTA recovery as clomid.

 

[MFAAS]

It is generally accepted that for each 100 ng/dL increase in total T, a man will gain around 1 kg of baseline lean mass.

Has anybody else been through this? Do you believe that with test levels in the range that mine were somebody could actually make real gains? What's your experience with low T been?

Yes! You can totally still grow and get stronger with low T, but you'll hit a plateau earlier than others and the gains will be slower. Also when bulking you'll put on more fat compared to someone with higher T or obviously someone on AAS.

I know this because the first 4 years of my lifting career was with me having low T. This is a long time ago now. I plateaued at a pretty "low" level. I could only bench around 190 lbs for 8 reps, squat around 275x8 and DL around 325x8. I just couldn't get stronger after that. I also couldn't get leaner or gain muscle. I was just kinda stuck despite nutrition and training being solid. I played with SARMs, namely LGD-4033 and Ostarine... and they just sucked. They for sure provided gains but overall the cycles sucked. You feel like shit for the last few weeks, the recovery sucks, etc. The gains are there but aren't anything to write home about. It was thanks to my pre-SARM cycle blood test is when I realized I had low T, before that I didn't even know! For me I think my HPTA was permanently impaired due to chronic opioid (and marijuana) abuse from ages 16 or 17 to age 23.

So going on TRT was a MASSIVE improvement for me in physical performance, strength and physique. I had mad gains for a solid year just from the TRT alone. I went from 310 ng/dL to 120 and my weight went from around 190 lbs to 208 lbs, all muscle gain and actually got leaner during that time as well. Then after TRT I started doing AAS cycles and that took it to another level, but the TRT gains alone were incredible!

 

[Millard]

It is generally accepted that for each 100 ng/dL increase in total T, a man will gain around 1 kg of baseline lean mass.

Citation?

 

[Iamnatty]

So I'm 38 years old I've been lifting weights recreationally for around 13 years. I started to try and get more serious about it 5 years ago. I was tracking macros and experimenting with different programs. And I don't mean I was program jumping, I was giving different styles an honest try for at least 12 months at a time.

It seemed no matter what I tried I stayed relatively weak and didnt see much change in my body.
I topped out at a 225 5x5 on bench and my squat and deadlift numbers were too embarrassing to even mention.

I've never been a big eater, but I decided I'd better add fuel to my body and went on an 8 month bulk. I cant remember exactly, but I was eating something like 210p 400c and 80f for a total of 3200 calories. I did get slightly stronger, but one day 17 months ago I looked in the mirror and saw a fat, weak 6'1" 225 lb slob. Balloon face and all.

I gave up on everything. The diet, quit the gym for a few months and just took a break. I lost 15 lbs just by eating what and when I wanted.

I learned through a Joe Rogan podcast about traumatic brain injuries and the effect they can have on hormones and Test levels and what that can do for your well being. It struck a chord, since I've rode a lot of dirtbike and took several hits to the head. Ive woke up laying in the dirt on a race track several times. I've also battled with depression and alcoholism my whole life. I have, however been sober since a life changing experience in November 2011.

So I started on my journey looking into trt. I had my test levels checked and over 4 separate blood samples in the course of 2 or 3 weeks, they came back averaging somewhere around 250. I found an endo who prescribed me 100 mg test e every 10 days. It changed my life. Very quickly I noticed changes in my mental state, along with changes in my body. I did an short run of 350 test e/ week and saw amazing results. I've since had my test prescription bumped to 120mg/ week. I also ran into some e2 problems and side effects, but have since been working on my AI protocol and have eliminated those.

I know that on this forum this won't be at all impressive, but I have squatted 315 and pulled 405. I was really happy to hit those numbers.

The point of this is that while I was training with my natural test levels I was desperately trying to sift through advice and choose what made sense and saw little effect. I always heard experienced people say to take your natural training and nutrition as far as possible then when you are ready think about gear. The advice was that if you aren't making progress there is obviously a problem with your training, your nutrition or both. Nobody ever mentions having your hormones checked.

My experience has been that no matter what I did, it didn't matter. I now believe that i never would have made any progress without trt. I've been dieting and I'm down to a reasonably lean 194, I'm as strong as I've ever been and though it is a lot of work (the doctors I've been seeing have been of no real help at all) it's totally worth it.

Has anybody else been through this? Do you believe that with test levels in the range that mine were somebody could actually make real gains? What's your experience with low T been?

I have been through something extremely similar except I went through a 8 year opioid addiction from when I was 17. Once I got clean I lifted for 8 years and after stalling out where I was , I upped my calories and only got fatter. And when I went and got my hormones checked I averaged 230. And it's a total 180 difference to be on trt. Since I'm already taking shots I just started blasting and now life is great. I wish more people would talk about low t and hormones. I think it might be something alot of people deal with , it's just people who goto gyms are the people who care the most about things like that once you realize how muscle is built.

 

[MFAAS]

Citation?

I mistyped it was actually an average of 1 POUND, not kilogram. There is a wide range at play here, and obviously weight training will have a significant impact.

Throughout studies you can see when T is suppressed, subjects tend to lose in that range (~1lb) of fat free mass per 100 ng/dL decrease in T, and also gain similarly. Here is an article that sums up the research nicely and is quite current. I can't find the study I got this from at the moment: https://weightology.net/the-members...siological-testosterone-matter-to-your-gains/

The effect tapers off at higher levels. So going from 2000-2500 is not as bif a difference as 50-550. Or 250-750. Etc. Hopefully this helps.

 

[roolosx]

I am 24 years old and have had multiple testosterone tests done since I was 21. Every time I have been between the range of 178-230 ng/dL (which from what I've read online, is low for someone at my age). I have still made gains in the gym, maybe I could've made more if my T was higher. I have tried to get several doctors (and one endo) in my general area to put me on TRT but unfortunately, it seems every time I do my tests the range for what is considered "low-normal" drops every year. Currently, since my last testosterone test, the range was 172-756 ng/dL.

 

[MFAAS]

I am 24 years old and have had multiple testosterone tests done since I was 21. Every time I have been between the range of 178-230 ng/dL (which from what I've read online, is low for someone at my age). I have still made gains in the gym, maybe I could've made more if my T was higher. I have tried to get several doctors (and one endo) in my general area to put me on TRT but unfortunately, it seems every time I do my tests the range for what is considered "low-normal" drops every year. Currently, since my last testosterone test, the range was 172-756 ng/dL.

Jesus Christ 172 is insane. I've never seen a normal range that low! You can keep trying out you can go to an online clinic, or self treat...

 

[roolosx]

Jesus Christ 172 is insane. I've never seen a normal range that low! You can keep trying out you can go to an online clinic, or self treat...

I am definitely going to be looking around. The closest endo near me is about 2 hours away. So I will probably be looking online!

 

[Canknucklehead]

I have had success with low test and high tren to build muscle. Give it a shot.

 

[mindgame1516]

There are a bunch of online trt clinics that are pretty good that's where I started. Well actually switched to after go to an I person clinic

 

[Megadick3000]

I am 24 years old and have had multiple testosterone tests done since I was 21. Every time I have been between the range of 178-230 ng/dL (which from what I've read online, is low for someone at my age). I have still made gains in the gym, maybe I could've made more if my T was higher. I have tried to get several doctors (and one endo) in my general area to put me on TRT but unfortunately, it seems every time I do my tests the range for what is considered "low-normal" drops every year. Currently, since my last testosterone test, the range was 172-756 ng/dL.

You do know you can intentionally tank your natty T then get tested then get TRT right?

Ive known some bros over the years who did exactly that.

Just take any steroid thats not exogenous testosterone, the more suppressive the better, your endogenous testosterone will tank, while its tanked get tested and voila. Of course Dr is gonna ask if your on anything, deny, complain about common low test symptoms, cry in the corner about how your gf left you cause your dick dont work.

Mission accomplished.