Butyl vs Silicone stoppers

[MrTexas2]

Greetings. This is all stuff that home brewers should already know, but I saw a claim suggesting that Silicone bottle stoppers (10 ml in this case) were superior to butyl rubber. The argument was two fold, one that Silicone was more resistant to chemicals (specifically BB and BA) and that it was more resistant to damage from multiple needle penetrations.

However, this chart shows Chemical Compatibility Chart | Applications| Jehbco Silicones
that butyl rubber is superior in terms of chemical resistance (B and B grade regarding the rubber and BA/BB resistance, relative to B ands D grade for silicone). So rubber is more chemical resistant.

In terms of needle penetrations, I have a guy doing half a cc of test (brewed at about 230 mgs) e4d so he is stabbing the bottle about 18-19 times (you always lose a little bit). I have personally never had a problem with rubber breaking off, but has anyone else had a problem with this many stopper penetrations? I know that big Pharma likes to limit an opened vial to 30 days, but it is my understanding that they are being somewhat overly cautious.

 

[Photon]

Greetings. This is all stuff that home brewers should already know, but I saw a claim suggesting that Silicone bottle stoppers (10 ml in this case) were superior to butyl rubber. The argument was two fold, one that Silicone was more resistant to chemicals (specifically BB and BA) and that it was more resistant to damage from multiple needle penetrations.

However, this chart shows Chemical Compatibility Chart | Applications| Jehbco Silicones
that butyl rubber is superior in terms of chemical resistance (B and B grade regarding the rubber and BA/BB resistance, relative to B ands D grade for silicone). So rubber is more chemical resistant.

In terms of needle penetrations, I have a guy doing half a cc of test (brewed at about 230 mgs) e4d so he is stabbing the bottle about 18-19 times (you always lose a little bit). I have personally never had a problem with rubber breaking off, but has anyone else had a problem with this many stopper penetrations? I know that big Pharma likes to limit an opened vial to 30 days, but it is my understanding that they are being somewhat overly cautious.

no silicone.
use these.

Post in thread 'Filtering finished oils'

Saturday at 2:08 PM

These are the 2 vials that are recommended for use on this board.

UPS rated ALK vials
FluroTec coated stoppers
Better than the below, but expired.

20mm, 10ml and 30ml Non-Sterile, Empty, Clear Glass Vials with FluroTec™ barrier film, EXPIRED

Non-sterile 20mm, 10ml and 30ml FluroTec™vials are expired and are no longer considered sterile. These are for use with procedures that do not require the vial to be sterile.

www.farrislabs.com

UPS Rated UltraSpec vials
PTFE stoppers

Ultra Spec 10ML Clear Sealed Sterile Glass Vials, Qty 1

Ultra Spec Sterile Clear Sealed Glass Vials - 10ML (20mm Neck) made of SCHOTT FIOLAX® glass tubing. In order to receive vials in sealed shrink wrap boxes, please order in multiples of 25.

www.medical-and-lab-supplies.com

I haven't seen any comparison so Im posting mine.

Review for the 30ml vials
ALK vials does seem to be of better quality.
Its a tiny bit wider and little longer. It can...

• Photon

• 

 

[MrTexas2]

So no capping? I just picked up a beautiful new Kebby.

 

[Photon]

So no capping? I just picked up a beautiful new Kebby.

no silicone
avoid just rubber

get rubber stoppers with coating
Novapure > FluroTec > PTFE = ETFE

 

[amazonas]

no silicone.
use these.

Post in thread 'Filtering finished oils'

Saturday at 2:08 PM

These are the 2 vials that are recommended for use on this board.

UPS rated ALK vials
FluroTec coated stoppers
Better than the below, but expired.

20mm, 10ml and 30ml Non-Sterile, Empty, Clear Glass Vials with FluroTec™ barrier film, EXPIRED

Non-sterile 20mm, 10ml and 30ml FluroTec™vials are expired and are no longer considered sterile. These are for use with procedures that do not require the vial to be sterile.

www.farrislabs.com

UPS Rated UltraSpec vials
PTFE stoppers

Ultra Spec 10ML Clear Sealed Sterile Glass Vials, Qty 1

Ultra Spec Sterile Clear Sealed Glass Vials - 10ML (20mm Neck) made of SCHOTT FIOLAX® glass tubing. In order to receive vials in sealed shrink wrap boxes, please order in multiples of 25.

www.medical-and-lab-supplies.com

I haven't seen any comparison so Im posting mine.

Review for the 30ml vials
ALK vials does seem to be of better quality.
Its a tiny bit wider and little longer. It can...

• Photon

• 

Looks like it's only US shipping. Any idea where to source these in EU?

 

[Ghoul]

Looks like it's only US shipping. Any idea where to source these in EU?

So no capping? I just picked up a beautiful new Kebby.

Buy these:

20mm Serum NovaPure® Ready-to-Use Chlorobutyl 4432/50 Stoppers

West Pharmaceutical Services manufactures 20mm NovaPure® Chlorobutyl stoppers made from 4432/50 laminated with FluroTec® barrier film to help reduce & leachables.

www.westpharma.com

Here:

(50) West 20mm Gray 4432/50 S-87J Elastomer Double Vent Rubber Stoppers | eBay

Feature: has a straight-through "double vent". Our inventory is sourced through liquidations and surplus from the biotechnology and pharmaceutical industries. Part #: 10142939 S-87-J.

ebay.us

 

[MrTexas2]

Buy these:

20mm Serum NovaPure® Ready-to-Use Chlorobutyl 4432/50 Stoppers

West Pharmaceutical Services manufactures 20mm NovaPure® Chlorobutyl stoppers made from 4432/50 laminated with FluroTec® barrier film to help reduce & leachables.

www.westpharma.com

View attachment 365055

Here:

(50) West 20mm Gray 4432/50 S-87J Elastomer Double Vent Rubber Stoppers | eBay

Feature: has a straight-through "double vent". Our inventory is sourced through liquidations and surplus from the biotechnology and pharmaceutical industries. Part #: 10142939 S-87-J.

ebay.us

View attachment 365056

Will probably go this route next time I do a brew. For right now, with the butyl rubber I will store bottles upright.

 

[MrTexas2]

I should add, I have been using butyl rubber stoppers since forever. I make a small batch, and it is usually gone in 8 weeks and then used in another 8 weeks, so my stuff is normally only around for 4 months. I don't think I have ever had any problems because gear stays pretty fresh that way (especially if stored upright).

I use less BB that way too. However. I have a good friend who is a hoarder. When I told him about the "Great Raws Shortage" he acquired 10 bottles of everything. This was/is for personal usage, so the stuff is lasting him a very long time. He does the old school 3 months on 3 months off program so 10 bottles goes quite a way. The Raws shortage turned me into a hoarder as well. I have primo (2 bottles I am hoarding) that is nearly 8 months old because it has been so hard to come by.

But that, of course, now makes me concerned about long term effects. For example, my friend had 4 bottles crash (due to minimum BB).

So it seems my larger question is, what kind of shelf life can we expect with all these butyl rubber stoppers I now have?

 

[Photon]

Looks like it's only US shipping. Any idea where to source these in EU?

Use a freight forwarder.
I have no idea of any EU sources, maybe try the EU domestic thread.

But that, of course, now makes me concerned about long term effects. For example, he had 4 bottles crash (due to minimum BB).

Crashing is not an issue.
I have vials in the fridge.
Some of them crash.

 

[MrTexas2]

And yes, I did read this thread....but that is a huge amount of work: Transferring oils for long term storage

 

[Photon]

And yes, I did read this thread....but that is a huge amount of work: Transferring oils for long term storage

He's building up a stockpile for his grand kids lol

 

[Ghoul]

I should add, I have been using butyl rubber stoppers since forever. I make a small batch, and it is usually gone in 8 weeks and then used in another 8 weeks, so my stuff is normally only around for 4 months. I don't think I have ever had any problems because gear stays pretty fresh that way (especially if stored upright).

I use less BB that way too. However. I have a good friend who is a hoarder. When I told him about the "Great Raws Shortage" he acquired 10 bottles of everything. This was/is for personal usage, so the stuff is lasting him a very long time. He does the old school 3 months on 3 months off program so 10 bottles goes quite a way. The Raws shortage turned me into a hoarder as well. I have primo (2 bottles I am hoarding) that is nearly 8 months old because it has been so hard to come by.

But that, of course, now makes me concerned about long term effects. For example, my friend had 4 bottles crash (due to minimum BB).

So it seems my larger question is, what kind of shelf life can we expect with all these butyl rubber stoppers I now have?

Too many variables to predict with accuracy.

What we know is that at room temp, Benzyl Alcohol is slowly absorbed into raw butyl rubber stoppers (doesn’t have to be in contact), and at some point, as little as a few months, at most 2 years in experiments, concentration of BA is reduced to the point antibacterial protection is lost.

Oil and benzyl benzoate, again without direct contact, cause the stopper to soften and swell, so it absorbs BA even faster, and toxic rubber chemicals easier to leach into the liquid.

 

[MrTexas2]

Too many variables to predict with accuracy.

What we know is that at room temp, Benzyl Alcohol is slowly absorbed into raw butyl rubber stoppers (doesn’t have to be in contact), and at some point, as little as a few months, at most 2 years in experiments, concentration of BA is reduced to the point antibacterial protection is lost.

Oil and benzyl benzoate, again without direct contact, cause the stopper to soften and swell, so it absorbs BA even faster, and toxic rubber chemicals easier to leach into the liquid.

View attachment 365093View attachment 365094

I am going to guesstimate, then, that these have a shelf life of 1 year maximum. Ironically, I have always, just as a common sense gesture, advocated using gear w/in 8 months (preferably 6) of its creation.

 

[explodingHeart]

Too many variables to predict with accuracy.

What we know is that at room temp, Benzyl Alcohol is slowly absorbed into raw butyl rubber stoppers (doesn’t have to be in contact), and at some point, as little as a few months, at most 2 years in experiments, concentration of BA is reduced to the point antibacterial protection is lost.

Oil and benzyl benzoate, again without direct contact, cause the stopper to soften and swell, so it absorbs BA even faster, and toxic rubber chemicals easier to leach into the liquid.

View attachment 365093View attachment 365094

For us idiots who are still using chinese oils, upon receiving, best to filter and move to a larger, safer vial for long term storage?

 

[explodingHeart]

Too many variables to predict with accuracy.

What we know is that at room temp, Benzyl Alcohol is slowly absorbed into raw butyl rubber stoppers (doesn’t have to be in contact), and at some point, as little as a few months, at most 2 years in experiments, concentration of BA is reduced to the point antibacterial protection is lost.

Oil and benzyl benzoate, again without direct contact, cause the stopper to soften and swell, so it absorbs BA even faster, and toxic rubber chemicals easier to leach into the liquid.

View attachment 365093View attachment 365094

I'm going to dump all of the long term storage / oil, safe vial, stuff into a large document and attempt to distill it down to a page or two of info for easy reposting.


Could you just give maybe 3-5 key points to look out for an summarize?

- oil type, MCT (chinese food grade probably), long term,
- temperature
- proper filtering, if the cheaper chinese filters work, or if we need whatman
- steroid APIs going rancid, etc.


Assume said consumer of document is an idiot as most of us injecting UG oils probably are.

 

[MrTexas2]

He's building up a stockpile for his grand kids lol

I was going to like your comment...it is funny. Unfortunately I have too many 18 year olds bugging me for gear.

I had this one 19 year kid that I really liked. Kid didn't grow up with a father so I kind of took him under my wing, actually helped train him for a while. He got up to 238 lbs naturally. I was pushing him to stay natural for at least a few more years.

Suddenly he is 267.

 

[MrTexas2]

For us idiots who are still using chinese oils, upon receiving, best to filter and move to a larger, safer vial for long term storage?

If you have oil that was made in a questionable manner then yes, absolutely filter it. The easiest thing to do is to use pre made sterile vials like those suggested by some posters on this thread.

The other option is learn how to sterilize and cap everything yourself.

Here is a thread about transferring oils for long term storage. I have not examined all of it closely but I am sure you will find information: Transferring oils for long term storage

 

[explodingHeart]

If you have oil that was made in a questionable manner then yes, absolutely filter it. The easiest thing to do is to use pre made sterile vials like those suggested by some posters on this thread.

The other option is learn how to sterilize and cap everything yourself.

Here is a thread about transferring oils for long term storage. I have not examined all of it closely but I am sure you will find information: Transferring oils for long term storage

Ah yes, I've skimmed through the thread once. I'm going to take a look at it again in greater detail.

Was there any good reason not to use larger vials for storage, say 50ml? Then when you intend to use it, refilter into smaller vials?

 

[MrTexas2]

Ah yes, I've skimmed through the thread once. I'm going to take a look at it again in greater detail.

Was there any good reason not to use larger vials for storage, say 50ml? Then when you intend to use it, refilter into smaller vials?

I think that common sense would say that if you are going to use a 50 ml vial you are going to stab into it (say 50 times for 50 1 ml shots) and that would create more potential problems (infection, pieces of rubber breaking off, etc.).

That is why I like 10 ml vials.

 

[explodingHeart]

I think that common sense would say that if you are going to use a 50 ml vial you are going to stab into it (say 50 times for 50 1 ml shots) and that would create more potential problems (infection, pieces of rubber breaking off, etc.).

That is why I like 10 ml vials.

My logic was keep in storage at 50ml, then use a 50ml syringe to put into smaller vials when it's needed.