Change in Erectile Function after Stopping Clomid and Pramipexole

4-chloro: have you invcestigated the para sympathetic NS NTs as relates to libido?

Not in depth no.

But any effect the PSNS has on "libido" will be through a physiological response to an external stimulus. To my knowledge, the PSNS controls the smooth muscle contractions that are needed to have an erection, prevent semen from entering the bladder and ejaculation etc.

The main NT of the PSNS is AcetylCholine which plays a large role in Nitric Oxide release in smooth muscle. Piracetam, Pramiracetam or Nicotine (I would advise Piracetam) could be used to test if this could be a contributing factor. Either way, 3grams of Piracetam a day won't hurt.

So the PSNS doesn't relate to sexual desire so much as it does to the bodies physical ability to respond when aroused. Similiar to the fight or flight response, your body will receive an external stimulus (say standing precariously on the edge of a 100 story building) and the PSNS will then elicit a release of hormones and NT's, thus causing a number of physiological effects, such as increased focus, heart rate, increased blood flow to skeletal muscle etc.

It is also important to note the CNS NT's also regulate the response of the PSNS. For example, if you give somebody with stage fright a walloping dose of Remeron, they will likely have a reduced stress response, simply because the way the external stimulus is viewed, in this case, the crowd of people might seem like less of a threat.

If the PSNS wasn't functioning enough to give an erection with the proper stimulus, than you would likely feel a host of other problems before that. The PSNS has to be provided with stimulus, or at least stimulus that you and your CNS take to be stimulus.

Balancing hormone levels in the way I outlined earlier would be the most prudent course of action before investigating the PSNS in any large way.
However, taking 3grams of Piracetam daily (available cheaply OTC) will raise acetylcholine levels in the brain, the effect will build with time. Nicotine's effects will be more immediate. If all other hormones etc are balanced out (Along with Mirapex and Tadalafil), and problems still arise one could try a 14mg Nicotine patch to see if there is an improvement over the course of a week or two. Any changes *MIGHT* indicate a problem in that area, it is however, unlikely.

Do you know anything more about this pathway ZKT? My knowledge her is more limited. This is also a bit of a watered down response.
 
I must say your understanding of everything you have commented on in this forum is textbook perfect.
My interest in PNS actions derived partly from the study of mild cognitive impairment and alzheimers in which the primary neurotransmitter, acetylcholine, is lower than in the population. The first line of treatment is usually an acetylcholinesterase inhibitor. It is not uncommon for hypersexuality to develop when using these drugs. I have avoided experimentiing on myself because Ach`s action on the bronchii is constrictory and I have a sig degree of COPD, PHT and asthma. My libido and penile sensation has been somewhat less than par lately. So nonetheless, I took ~4mg donepezil last night and awoke to some nice wood for a change with no change in breathing. As far as I know no one has explored the benefits of the acetylcholinesterase inhibitors in terms of libido and sexual performance. I would expect an increased liklihood oh PE to occur which may negate the gains or could perhaps be offset by other druge. My usual treatment for PE is tramadol which binds not only to several of the opiate receptors but exerts a stimulatory effect on serotonin as well- very effective.
Looking forward to your thoughts.
 
SactoSD:
Man I didnt mean to hijack your thread; seeins as I am investigating the PNS and 4-chloro is well versed on the sublect, it just came up.
Have all your issues been addressed to your satisfaction?
If not, I can take my thing up elsewhere or whatever you like.
But I wanted to update the days experimental observations.
As usual I negleced to follow the golden rule: Change only one thing at a time. I cut the morning dose of tramadol in half because I was feeling so much better on 15 mg HC vs 10 and also another 5 mg donepezil in the early afternoon. The end result was much greatly improved PNS communication verging on PE.. The experiment had to be regretably cut short. LOL. No detrimental pulmonary effects. Will increase the Ach-ase inhibitor to 10 mg tonite.
 
SactoSD:
Man I didnt mean to hijack your thread; seeins as I am investigating the PNS and 4-chloro is well versed on the sublect, it just came up.
Have all your issues been addressed to your satisfaction?
If not, I can take my thing up elsewhere or whatever you like.
But I wanted to update the days experimental observations.
As usual I negleced to follow the golden rule: Change only one thing at a time. I cut the morning dose of tramadol in half because I was feeling so much better on 15 mg HC vs 10 and also another 5 mg donepezil in the early afternoon. The end result was much greatly improved PNS communication verging on PE.. The experiment had to be regretably cut short. LOL. No detrimental pulmonary effects. Will increase the Ach-ase inhibitor to 10 mg tonite.

No problem. Talk all you want about it.

Some good news for me happened... I'm interviewing for a research position in Dr. Nestor Gonzalez-Cadavid's lab, under a few masters students, who are researching the stem cell therapy/ED treatment I discussed in this thread.

I called him up today, and was able to talk to him on the phone for about 20 minutes. Long story short, I told him that I'm a biochem student @ UCLA, want to go into medicine (possibly Urology), and have been researching ED for some time. I also said that I suffer from ED, and might be assisted by the types of treatments they're investigating. Whether that's detrimental to my chances of being accepted as a researcher, or not, I don't know; but, I felt that it was appropriate to mention it since I have a personal interest in the matter, and in my experience, interest translates into better work, even with a personal bias, as it were.

Anyhow, I'm taking my resume, biography, etc with me to the interview on Friday. If you guys have any advice for me, as far as professional tips, whatnot, please chime in. This is a huge chance for me to do something worthwhile, and I want to make the most of it. I know/suspect that some of you are in the medical field. Thanks!

PS: I went and saw the metromd doctor yesterday, the one who performs stem cell therapy for ED using bone marrow derived stem cells. He didn't seem to be willing to take very much time to explain to me his treatment, which is costly, to say the least. I don't think that I'll be going back to him. I am awaiting the results of an insurance nightmare (another) to get my most recent blood tested for the panel we discussed. Thanks again, 4-chloro and zkt.
 
Thats great man! Wishing you the best of luck. Best advice ai ever got re. interviews was to be relaxed and be yourself. :)
 
I must say your understanding of everything you have commented on in this forum is textbook perfect.
My interest in PNS actions derived partly from the study of mild cognitive impairment and alzheimers in which the primary neurotransmitter, acetylcholine, is lower than in the population. The first line of treatment is usually an acetylcholinesterase inhibitor. It is not uncommon for hypersexuality to develop when using these drugs. I have avoided experimentiing on myself because Ach`s action on the bronchii is constrictory and I have a sig degree of COPD, PHT and asthma. My libido and penile sensation has been somewhat less than par lately. So nonetheless, I took ~4mg donepezil last night and awoke to some nice wood for a change with no change in breathing. As far as I know no one has explored the benefits of the acetylcholinesterase inhibitors in terms of libido and sexual performance. I would expect an increased liklihood oh PE to occur which may negate the gains or could perhaps be offset by other druge. My usual treatment for PE is tramadol which binds not only to several of the opiate receptors but exerts a stimulatory effect on serotonin as well- very effective.
Looking forward to your thoughts.


I know for a fact that Nicotine withdrawal can cause ED and decreases penile sensitivity which would support the role of AcetylCholine in erectile function. However, stimulus is still needed in order for the body to send the AcetylCholine signal to genitals and associated organs/smooth muscle. The body generally produces a large amount of AcetylCholine, however it can be low in certain areas and high in others. Amphetamines for example increase the concentration of Acetylcholine in the striatum but lower it in other areas.

AC (acetylcholine) plays a large role in erectile function, however I find it would be unlikely that it is the sole reason for ED as other symptoms would develop indicative of low acetylcholine along with it as it controls all or almost all muscular contractions in the body as well as plays a large role in memory. I wouldn't suggest the long term use of a cholinasterase inhibitor due to potential overdose and other problems, especially an interaction with pre-existing COPD. This is why I instead recommended Piracetam or Pramiracetam. It has been show to be neuroprotective, improve cognition, Alzheimer's symptoms, wellbeing and libido all while having zero toxicity or withdrawal effects. It however, will have more subtle effects than a cholinasterase inhibitor.

To test whether you have low AC or that AC may be playing a role in ED one could perform a simple test of chewing a moderate to large dose of Nicotine gum before/during sex as Nicotine is a very powerful cholinergic agonist.

Mirapex (pramipexole hcl) frequently has the side effect of increased libido and sexual function along with not uncommon cases of hypersexuality. Mirapex will increase dopamine action (as it is a powerful multi-receptor dopamine agonist), lower prolactin and also lower acetlycholine. Giving more support to the theory that stimulation is needed in order for acetylcholine to perform it's action in erectile function and that the body is capable of producing enough acetylcholine for that specific purpose upon stimulation. The cholinasterase inhibitor likely had an effect similar to a PED-5 inhibitor which was to essentially make the body more sensitive to sexual stimulation, but not provide actual sexual drive directly so to speak. In males sexual stimulation is different from females in that, because a man is "turned on" he will get an erection, but also, because he has an erection, he will become "turned on". This is the case in females in that sexual stimulation will cause lubrication etc, but random vaginal relaxation and lubrication secretion will not cause them to be "turned on".

Thus, in theory, acetylcholine, like PDE-5 inhibitors improve male libido through an indirect pathway and compensate for lack of sexual stimulation on the part of the CNS. It is also interesting to note that a PDE-5 inhibitor and a substance that increases Acetylcholine would work synergistically. Acetylcholine stimulates the release of Nitric Oxide, and a PDE-5 inhibitor prevents it from degrading. I actually wonder now if prolactin has an antagonistic or otherwise deleterious effect on the acetylcholine receptors in the genitals, as people with high prolactin still seem to maintain at least some libido (the low libido likely being due to the low dopamine caused by the high serotonin not the prolactin itself) but often lose the ability to have an erection, and have lessened penile sensitivity which makes it difficult to achieve orgasm for some (especially women). It is less likely that it has any direct effects on PDE-5/NO synthesis or otherwise release. I could be completely wrong, but I'll look into it. It would also explain why Mirapex can drastically increase libido while lowering acetylcholine, as lowered prolactin could lead to increased acetylcholine sensitivity.

Using SSRI's or opiates to treat PE can be effective. However, the reason that it "works" is because these drugs imitate or recreate the post sexual environment. During/before sex, Dopamine, Oxytocin, NE, sex hormones, acetylcholine and endorphins to a varying degree. After ejaculation there is a flood of serotonin, resulting in increased prolactin, a decrease in acetylcholine, a decrease in NE as well as a flood of oxytocin. Endogenous opiates are also released. Ever wonder why you feel sleepy, cuddly, relaxed and happy in general after sex? The above is why.

By taking those opiates and SSRI's etc, you are basically, to a degree, telling your body that you're done with sex. This decreases sexual potency, sensitivity and interest in general, it also makes if difficult for another "round" so to speak. It is however effective in treating PE.

However, by taking drugs that release Dopamine, sex hormones, acetylcholine, NE as well as a PDE-5 inhibitor we are giving ourselves an effective treatment for PE while maintaining sexual sensitivity/function as well as giving us the ability for multiple "rounds" if so desired not to mention a more intense desire.

Cocaine for example was found very quickly to be a potent aphrodisiac and many people provide anecdotal evidence of Cocaine's, and amphetamines ability to prolong sexual activity and desire. Most likely through the mechanisms described above.
 
AC (acetylcholine) plays a large role in erectile function, however I find it would be unlikely that it is the sole reason for ED as other symptoms would develop indicative of low acetylcholine along with it as it controls all or almost all muscular contractions in the body as well as plays a large role in memory. I wouldn't suggest the long term use of a cholinasterase inhibitor due to potential overdose and other problems, especially an interaction with pre-existing COPD. This is why I instead recommended Piracetam or Pramiracetam. It has been show to be neuroprotective, improve cognition, Alzheimer's symptoms, wellbeing and libido all while having zero toxicity or withdrawal effects. It however, will have more subtle effects than a cholinasterase inhibitor.
Do you know if DMAE has any real benefits in increasing acetylcholine?

http://www.vrp.com/brain-health/acetylcholine-enhancement-galantamine-and-dmaes-cognitive-supportive-role (Acetylcholine Enhancement: Galantamine and DMAE - VRP.com)

DMAE and Cognitive Enhancement
Along with galantamine, DMAE is important to include in a list of cognitive-enhancing substances. Dimethylaminoethanol (DMAE) is a naturally-occurring, mild cerebral stimulant nutrient found in such “brain” foods as anchovies and sardines.

Like galantamine, DMAE influences acetylcholine metabolism (Fig. 1). It has long been known to stimulate the production of choline, which in turn allows the brain to optimize production of acetylcholine.7-9 However, Professor Imre Zs.-Nagy believes that enhanced acetylcholine is not the only explanation for DMAE’s effect, since he believes that a choline-rich diet alone should have the same acetylcholine-increasing effect, which he believes is not the case. Zs.-Nagy proposes that other mechanisms of DMAE include its being a free radical scavenger (with particular ability to protect cellular membranes); cross-linkage inhibitor; and spin trapper (a type of free radical scavenger).10 In addition, Dr. Richard Hochschild proposed that DMAE’s principal anti-aging mechanism is that of acting as a “cell membrane fluidizer.”11
 
No problem. Talk all you want about it.

Some good news for me happened... I'm interviewing for a research position in Dr. Nestor Gonzalez-Cadavid's lab, under a few masters students, who are researching the stem cell therapy/ED treatment I discussed in this thread.

I called him up today, and was able to talk to him on the phone for about 20 minutes. Long story short, I told him that I'm a biochem student @ UCLA, want to go into medicine (possibly Urology), and have been researching ED for some time. I also said that I suffer from ED, and might be assisted by the types of treatments they're investigating. Whether that's detrimental to my chances of being accepted as a researcher, or not, I don't know; but, I felt that it was appropriate to mention it since I have a personal interest in the matter, and in my experience, interest translates into better work, even with a personal bias, as it were.

Anyhow, I'm taking my resume, biography, etc with me to the interview on Friday. If you guys have any advice for me, as far as professional tips, whatnot, please chime in. This is a huge chance for me to do something worthwhile, and I want to make the most of it. I know/suspect that some of you are in the medical field. Thanks!

PS: I went and saw the metromd doctor yesterday, the one who performs stem cell therapy for ED using bone marrow derived stem cells. He didn't seem to be willing to take very much time to explain to me his treatment, which is costly, to say the least. I don't think that I'll be going back to him. I am awaiting the results of an insurance nightmare (another) to get my most recent blood tested for the panel we discussed. Thanks again, 4-chloro and zkt.

Wish you the best of luck man, all that sounds awesome!
 
Do you know if DMAE has any real benefits in increasing acetylcholine?

http://www.vrp.com/brain-health/acetylcholine-enhancement-galantamine-and-dmaes-cognitive-supportive-role (Acetylcholine Enhancement: Galantamine and DMAE - VRP.com)

DMAE and Cognitive Enhancement
Along with galantamine, DMAE is important to include in a list of cognitive-enhancing substances. Dimethylaminoethanol (DMAE) is a naturally-occurring, mild cerebral stimulant nutrient found in such “brain” foods as anchovies and sardines.

Like galantamine, DMAE influences acetylcholine metabolism (Fig. 1). It has long been known to stimulate the production of choline, which in turn allows the brain to optimize production of acetylcholine.7-9 However, Professor Imre Zs.-Nagy believes that enhanced acetylcholine is not the only explanation for DMAE’s effect, since he believes that a choline-rich diet alone should have the same acetylcholine-increasing effect, which he believes is not the case. Zs.-Nagy proposes that other mechanisms of DMAE include its being a free radical scavenger (with particular ability to protect cellular membranes); cross-linkage inhibitor; and spin trapper (a type of free radical scavenger).10 In addition, Dr. Richard Hochschild proposed that DMAE’s principal anti-aging mechanism is that of acting as a “cell membrane fluidizer.”11

I don't I haven't researched it. However I remember looking into DMAE awhile ago and found it unappealing.
 
I wasnt postulating ACh deficiency as a possible cause of ED- more interested in its potential as a sexual enhancer and aphrodesiac. My experiments have gotten sidetracked temporarily but not forgotten. One of the probledms with donepizil is that serum Tmax is reached in 80 hrs. Apparenlty there is a strong interaction with one of the Cyp450 enzymes causing rapid degradation. However a large dose that overwhelmed the enzyme might be interesting .
Good point fre nicotine and sexual performance not only due to vasoconstriction but also to changes in PNS functioning.
Beef liver and eggs are an excellent source of choline and preferable to DMAE, imho, to increase ACh. Chriss Masterjohn recently commented on the role amd importance of choline in the prevention of oxidation of the PUFA content of the LDL membrane, i.e. atherosclerosis.
 
I wasnt postulating ACh deficiency as a possible cause of ED- more interested in its potential as a sexual enhancer and aphrodesiac. My experiments have gotten sidetracked temporarily but not forgotten. One of the probledms with donepizil is that serum Tmax is reached in 80 hrs. Apparenlty there is a strong interaction with one of the Cyp450 enzymes causing rapid degradation. However a large dose that overwhelmed the enzyme might be interesting .
Good point fre nicotine and sexual performance not only due to vasoconstriction but also to changes in PNS functioning.
Beef liver and eggs are an excellent source of choline and preferable to DMAE, imho, to increase ACh. Chriss Masterjohn recently commented on the role amd importance of choline in the prevention of oxidation of the PUFA content of the LDL membrane, i.e. atherosclerosis.

I apologize if I came across the wrong way on that front.

You could try taking it with white grapefruit juice. It contains a potent bioflavinoid that inhibits the CYP450 enzymes.

I'm looking into Modafinil as a possibility. Stay tuned... Oh and I forgot to mention, Nicotine also depletes MAO, thereby upregulating receptor functioning rather than the opposite as seen with other drugs and has the potential to have this effect for 2 months after cessation. A 14mg Nicotine patch might have potential as an aphrodisiac, however the effects will likely be more subtle than say testosterone, cocaine or viagra etc.

And how did you manage to get donepizil? Script or creative sourcing? :)
 
Beef liver and eggs are an excellent source of choline and preferable to DMAE, imho, to increase ACh.

I'm looking for something that would consistantly raise acetylcholine levels to help with adult ADD.
There are a great number of things I could eat before I could choke down beef liver. Human feces comes to mind.
 
I'm looking for something that would consistantly raise acetylcholine levels to help with adult ADD.
There are a great number of things I could eat before I could choke down beef liver. Human feces comes to mind.

Pramiracetam or piracetam, nicotine or donepezil are the only ones that come to mind. Supplementing with choline can help somewhat.
 
No problems here man. I`m just happy to have someone who knows that he is talking about to talk to! Same applys to you Dragon Rider!
Interesting drug.
[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modafinil]Modafinil - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]
Re the donep: I told my wifes Dr. that we had deceided to start her on it, along with mementine, because of short term memory issues. He added them to her file. Its cheaper from Keith(alldaychemist.com). Doesnt have Modafinil btw, but you could try 3gchemist. Send Sushil an email asking for it. The site`s listings are not complete.
Interesting idea. I`ll have to go check which CYP450 enzyme effects donep and in which way. As I recall grapefruit juice inhibitws only cdrtain ones.

I apologize if I came across the wrong way on that front.

You could try taking it with white grapefruit juice. It contains a potent bioflavinoid that inhibits the CYP450 enzymes.

I'm looking into Modafinil as a possibility. Stay tuned... Oh and I forgot to mention, Nicotine also depletes MAO, thereby upregulating receptor functioning rather than the opposite as seen with other drugs and has the potential to have this effect for 2 months after cessation. A 14mg Nicotine patch might have potential as an aphrodisiac, however the effects will likely be more subtle than say testosterone, cocaine or viagra etc.

And how did you manage to get donepizil? Script or creative sourcing? :)
 
So, I got the research spot in the lab. I'll be able to start in about a week. Thanks for the good wishes. I'll keep you guys posted on how it's going.
 
No problems here man. I`m just happy to have someone who knows that he is talking about to talk to! Same applys to you Dragon Rider!
Interesting drug.
Modafinil - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Re the donep: I told my wifes Dr. that we had deceided to start her on it, along with mementine, because of short term memory issues. He added them to her file. Its cheaper from Keith(alldaychemist.com). Doesnt have Modafinil btw, but you could try 3gchemist. Send Sushil an email asking for it. The site`s listings are not complete.
Interesting idea. I`ll have to go check which CYP450 enzyme effects donep and in which way. As I recall grapefruit juice inhibitws only cdrtain ones.

This is true. I also believe there is a drug that strongly inhibits the majority of them, I'll have to look it up again.

I've actually been reading into Modafinil myself recently. It was difficult to find consistent information about it, and there are lots of conflicting findings. It's exact pharmacological actions still aren't known, nevertheless I find it quite interesting. Some sources say it affects ACh and others report it doesn't. Let me know how it works out, I might try some myself sometime.
 
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