Clomid stopped working - try hcg for a while?

[Seppuku]

Hi all,

Long story short, due to finding out i had lowish testosterone around the year 2012, i put myself on low dose clomid therapy. I went from an average of around 350 ng/dl to over 600 ng/dl using 12.5mg clomid eod, and i stayed on this. Near the end of 2017, due to getting a lot of joint pain and fatigue, i decided to get some blood work done privately (previous testing was through nhs, i'm in the UK). My first, and follow up test two weeks later came back at around 330 ng/dl, with my LH near top of range. So assuming my balls were perhaps now desensitised from the high LH, i came off the clomid, and continued getting blood tests every couple of months. These have come back as low as 185ng/dl up to around 275ng/dl (from memory, and i'm converting from nmol/l). The 185ng was the last one i did in Nov 2019, and after that i went with my results back to my doctor. He did his test, which strangely came back around 350ng, above the NHS lower limit, but he thought i should see the endo anyhow. A couple of weeks later i got a letter saying he'd spoken to the endo, who said my number's fine, and that trt is dangerous etc etc. So no further help from the NHS.
My question is, would it be worth me trying out a short course of hcg (which i have), to try and kick my balls into action, then swapping back to clomid again? I also have enough ugl test enanthate to self treat for the next two years, i'm just not sure what's the best way forward from here. One thing i should note - before i started getting symptoms in 2017, i had been taking the occasional 25mg proviron, as i'd read it was not supressive (since found out that's wrong). But i stopped taking that at the time of my first private blood test, beginning of 2018. Any thoughts? I'm 48 years old, long time gym rat

 

[kosp]

Maybe those are just your natural levels, how are your low T symptoms? Maybe you can confuse them with depression or some mind shit.

Maybe what 350ng does for you is what 700s does for other, no difference?

 

[Seppuku]

Maybe those are just your natural levels, how are your low T symptoms? Maybe you can confuse them with depression or some mind shit.

Maybe what 350ng does for you is what 700s does for other, no difference?

You could be right, although i think that last reading done at the doctors was an anomaly, i noticed on the printout it was worked out five days after the other things requested on the blood test, could that affect it? Either way, when i first started using clomid, i got a reading of over 600. A few years after, still on clomid it had dropped to an average of around 250. As to my symptoms, i've lost a lot of strength, have bad joint pain (hips the worst), slow workout recovery (had been doing 3 x a week full body workouts for years, now twice if lucky, more often once). I just feel old, low motivation, tire easily, get out of chairs like an old man, central obesity (even though i only est twice a day, used to have three meals plus bedtime pro shake). Surely when i got the tests done in 2018, on clomid, LH at top of the scale, i should have got more than 350? And without it, LH around 2.5 (scale something like 1.5 - 8.5), getting sometimes a testosterone level as low as 185 ng/dl, that can't be healthy? I'm worried mostly that it's affecting my joints / cartilage etc. My lipids were also bad, high triglicerides, high LDL cholesterol, bottom of range HDL. Just not sure what to do, i can't afford private, the nhs aren't interested.

 

[Iron Frenchie]

Don’t worry about the number so much do you have any symptoms of low testosterone?

Low sex drive
Fatigue
Weak erections
Low muscle mass
Increased body fat

 

[Seppuku]

Some of them - fatigue, less muscle mass (than before the joint pains), and increased body fat, only abdomen though, like bubble gut from the inside.
Sex drive is pretty normal, erections ok but i take cialis 5mg daily (weak without it)

 

[kosp]

Eat more meals, more protein, drink more water, train more and harder, do your cardio, herb supplements (Maca, oat straw, tribilus etc.), take the sun naked, sleep better and foremost, shift your mind to positive thinking, maybe that's all it takes.

And why taking clomid and pct drugs? Those are all temporary remedies, do you have a long steroids historial?

 

[kosp]

My advice would be to stop everything (yes cialis too), stop thinking you have a problem, and push yourself a little harder.

 

[Seppuku]

My advice would be to stop everything (yes cialis too), stop thinking you have a problem, and push yourself a little harder.

You could have a point to be honest. It's all i ever read about now, and i bet i'm not alone on this - getting a low testostetone result can be all consuming, especially if the gym is your thing. No getting past the joint pain / loss of strength though unfortunately....
The clomid - well it was mentioned everywhere around 10 years ago as an alternative to trt. I got my first blood test around then, was expecting it to be top of the range (lol), and when it wasn't, started looking into solutions. 12.5mg eod is a common long term therapy for secondary hypogonadism, i tried it, and it worked. Now it doesn't, which is why i was wondering if a few weeks of hcg might do something that the clomid (and my own LH) isn't

 

[kosp]

You could have a point to be honest. It's all i ever read about now, and i bet i'm not alone on this - getting a low testostetone result can be all consuming, especially if the gym is your thing. No getting past the joint pain / loss of strength though unfortunately....
The clomid - well it was mentioned everywhere around 10 years ago as an alternative to trt. I got my first blood test around then, was expecting it to be top of the range (lol), and when it wasn't, started looking into solutions. 12.5mg eod is a common long term therapy for secondary hypogonadism, i tried it, and it worked. Now it doesn't, which is why i was wondering if a few weeks of hcg might do something that the clomid (and my own LH) isn't

Probably hcg would work, but only the time you're using it so... not sure if worth it.

Have you ever done steroid cycles?

 

[GymRaccoon]

I'm just guessing here but I don't think HCG will benefit you in the long run. It is an LH analogue. This means it works the same way as LH. If you aren't responding to your own high levels of LH I doubt HCG will fare better and if you do bump the does higher to compensate I bet you will only burn things out further in a short amount of time.

 

[Seppuku]

Kosp - no steroid cycles mate, only the proviron i mentioned.

Gymraccoon - you've got a good point there about burning things out. I've gotta wonder if that's what happened with me staying on the clomid so long. Maybe i should have cycled it.

 

[Sven_Northman]

Kosp - no steroid cycles mate, only the proviron i mentioned.

Gymraccoon - you've got a good point there about burning things out. I've gotta wonder if that's what happened with me staying on the clomid so long. Maybe i should have cycled it.

How old are you if I may ask? Have you considered self administered TRT? Perhaps its time to look at that path.

And while its probably not a huge factor in your current hormonal situation, I'd follow Kosps advice and clean up your diet, sleep, mental state. What you think about you bring about! Hope you get it sorted mate.

 

[GymRaccoon]

Also in my experience triglycerides are easily controlled with diet. The only time I've had high triglycerides were after a 3 day pizza bender. Lots of carbs... Perhaps lower your carbohydrate intake? Triglycerides are your bodies storage of excess calories and they are created mostly from carbs.

 

[Seppuku]

How old are you if I may ask? Have you considered self administered TRT? Perhaps its time to look at that path.

And while its probably not a huge factor in your current hormonal situation, I'd follow Kosps advice and clean up your diet, sleep, mental state. What you think about you bring about! Hope you get it sorted mate.

Hi Sven, thanks for replying. I'm 48 years old, and yes, i have considered self admin trt, a hell of a lot lately actually. I don't know what's holdibg me back - i have everything i need to do that already, enough test-e and needles to last me two years (if doing 120mg a week). Maybe it's because i've been natty so long it seems a bit weird. And what if it doesn't suit or help me, and then i try to come off and end up worse off? To be honest though, i was hoping i'd be able to fix myself, but maybe at 48 that's not going to happen.

 

[Seppuku]

Also in my experience triglycerides are easily controlled with diet. The only time I've had high triglycerides were after a 3 day pizza bender. Lots of carbs... Perhaps lower your carbohydrate intake? Triglycerides are your bodies storage of excess calories and they are created mostly from carbs.

Hi GymRaccoon - actually, i don't really eat a lot of carbs, the carbs i do eat i have in the evening though. On a work day i eat my first meal at around 1pm which is chicken, cheese, and mixed raw veg, followed by two apples. In the evening i eat my second (and last) meal, which is whatever the wife's cooked, (usually with a baked potato), and a pro shake. This is nearly always quite late, around 9pm. If anything, i probably eat too many fats/oils. I love butter a bit too much, and have a fair amount of cheese, nuts, olive oil etc

 

[GymRaccoon]

Hi GymRaccoon - actually, i don't really eat a lot of carbs, the carbs i do eat i have in the evening though. On a work day i eat my first meal at around 1pm which is chicken, cheese, and mixed raw veg, followed by two apples. In the evening i eat my second (and last) meal, which is whatever the wife's cooked, (usually with a baked potato), and a pro shake. This is nearly always quite late, around 9pm. If anything, i probably eat too many fats/oils. I love butter a bit too much, and have a fair amount of cheese, nuts, olive oil etc

Could very well be the saturated fats then. I love butter too but everyone is different.

 

[The Terminator]

Did you only have the one good blood test after starting clomid or more?

 

[Seppuku]

Did you only have the one good blood test after starting clomid or more?

Only the one Terminator. That was through the nhs, before i'd found a private testing company several years later. I just assumed my level was going to stay at 21nmol/l (620ng/dl i think). It was the joint pains after using proviron that made me look for private testing. In truth though, i've no idea what my levels were after that first nhs test

 

[The Terminator]

Only the one Terminator. That was through the nhs, before i'd found a private testing company several years later. I just assumed my level was going to stay at 21nmol/l (620ng/dl i think). It was the joint pains after using proviron that made me look for private testing. In truth though, i've no idea what my levels were after that first nhs test

Ah ok, I guess i was curious if this was an issue that recently popped up, or if the one test was a one time fluke..You said you had higher LH, do you remember the number?

 

[kosp]

Ah ok, I guess i was curious if this was an issue that recently popped up, or if the one test was a one time fluke..You said you had higher LH, do you remember the number?

By the way Terminator, are you fully recovered now?