clueless in FLA...

[JCMC64]

clueless in FLA...HELP

This is my story.
I am currently looking for a doctor in my area to consult with Swaleno luck so far (2 rejections so far). So, as I pursue this goal, and looks like it could take a little time, I was hoping to get some advice from this awesome board, as I need it now!

Some back ground:
40 y.o, been working out since 20 y.o. Did AAS for 2 years at age 24 (1987-88). Had monster gains - 6 5 , 300 lbs, 13% BF (had a scholarship for Div. 1 football). I tore an ACL, which ended my football career. I lost all my gains, (never even knew of Post cycle therapy back then), and became weaker than I was at 19 y.o. I got into pre cursors (pro hormones) for a few years from 98-03 (on and off), and got 80% of my gains back. Then I got bad tendonitis in my shoulders, no PCT again (did not know about it yet), lost all the gains again, and went into a deep depression. Somewhere along the line I developed Hypo thyroidism and got a decent amount of abdominal fat. (Current BF around 24-27%) depression\fatigue, lethargy, kicked in hard and my personal life went to helllost my job, wife, kids and home.

Now I'm trying to make a comeback, (or it will be a bottle of sleeping pills for me!!) Ive been battling this thyroid thing for 8 months now, different dr.s bouncing my meds around like a pinball machine, (including some Anti depressants--complete waste of time) and discovered TRT through Life Extension material. This lead me to getting my T checked, and it came in at 220 (241-827). I began to research TRT ( as well as thyroid dieseases) and I came across ATM website that led me to this board.

My dilemma-- I tried raising my T through natural supplementation (6 oxo) 2-3 months ago, which got my T up to 410 (I know, still very low), and free T up to lower mid range. But after I stopped supplements, T fell again to current number of 310. My Endo treating my Hypo Thyroidism gave me some Androgel last month (100mg e.d.)- I think out of having pity on me. But gave me little direction long term (she knows little about TRT). I started it May 17, and it felt good first week or so, but steady shitty feeling coming on, till now -feel like complete crap. Started taking DIM ( 1 in am, 1 in pm) along with the gel on May 25th along with some 6 oxo again (what I used last time to raise my T by 100%). But I just got my estradiol test back today, drawn on May 25th, and it is at 16 (10-50), which I know is low (another cog in the wheel). Right now I cut DIM to one at PM.

1) What should I do ??!!

2) Do I stop everything? If I do, what about too low E2 -- HCG??

3) Continue Gel but stop taking DIM, and let the E2 raise to get it in the 25-35 range? I know there are discussions about the benefits of DIM balancing out the complete estrogen panel, and not just E2

4) 6 oxo?

Again my goal is to use swales services, but it just is gong to take some time to get that going since I live so far away and Im feeling like complete shit RIGHT NOW!

My goal was to try and get my natural T as high as I can (after gel script runs out) before considering TRT for lifeMy 72 year old dad has higher Total T than I do.HELP!!!!!!

Thx in advance for any input, sorry for the novel
PS I had all bloodwork done in May, if anyone is interested in other labs.

 

[JCMC64]

bump

 

[pmgamer18]

Some questions first is your Thyroid balanced now or are you still having problems getting there. If your Thy. is off it is hard to get your T balanced with out TRT. I do know some men that got there T tested and found it to be low the Dr. did more testing and found his Try. was bad once on meds to balance his Thy. his T levels came back up with out any T med. I also know other men that did not feel good on TRT until they got there Thy. balanced.

So if your Thy. is good now and your T levels did not come up you may need to be on TRT for life. As for your E2 it is to low. I do have this problem a lot and find it very hard until now to keep it in check. When my E2 would go to low I would stop taking the Indolplex/DIM that I use until I felt better or my E2 levels went back up. If you stop Everything you can end up feeling worse. And you should figure out what you want to do and stay with it all of this on and off is just making things worse I have been there you try something and in less then a week if you don't feel better you stop it and try something diff.

A lot of men when they first go on AndroGel feel good in the first 2 weeks then back slide. This happens some say because there brain sees your taking T and does not send the message LH and FSH to the testis to make T. So If your levels were 220 before starting the gel after a time you can go back down to that level when you testis stop making the T. But if one stays the course in time you levels will come up but you need to get tested at least every 4 weeks to see where they are and if your not doing good and they are low you may need to up the does.

I sure hope you find a Dr. that will work with SWALE he is a great Dr. It is not everyday you see a Dr. doing for men free like he is here.
Phil

 

[JCMC64]

gamer

Thyroid is still a work in progress. Got a new Endo a month ago, and she bumped up the Synthroid significantly. I was still too high when tested last month, next TSH test is in 10 days. I know this is a big piece of the puzzle, and I am trying to be agressive\ pro-active now that I know a little about Hypo Thyroidism. But it is similar to TRT...adjust dosage, test blood, re-evaluate...takes months to cycle through an adjustment.

I understand the "on and off" comment. I just discovered this site a month ago, while I was already on a regimen, partly what my Endo gave me, and partly what I had to concoct due to her not knowing that much. I think I should of just focused on the Thyroid, but I jumped at the chance to get the gel thinking that would be th trick...then I found this site and got allot more informed. Just not sure if I should fight through this now, or stop altogether and focus on just thyroid problem. Very frustrating, because I suffer significantly from the symptoms of both Low T, and Hypo thyroidism, which kinda mirror each other- so I get twice the crappy symptoms...just an awful daily existence.

I'm seeing a couple more TRT doctors this week...got my fingers crossed re consult. I have stopped the DIM for now.

Thx for input

 

[pmgamer18]

My wife has a bad Thy. and had to have radio active iodine to kill it because her body was attacking her Thy. And one month it would work and then the next it would not work. It is called Hashimoto's Thyroiditis. It was very hard to treat her so she let them kill her Thy. But she in the last 15 yrs. has never felt good she sleeps all the time and complains about being tried from the time she gets up to the time she goes to bed. The Endo she was seeing had her on Synthroid she told the Dr. she does not feel right and all he would say is your levels are good lose some weight. I mean 15 yrs. of this crap I swear Endo's are useless. I finely got my wife to see my Dr. and he put her on Armour. She had to start on a low dose and work up from 30 mgs. but now doing 120 mg. a day and big changes she has more angry and is not sleeping all day and night. I think I read one of SWALES posts that he putts his patients on Armour. I have no use for Endo's I have seen 8 of them in the 21 yrs. that I have had low T and each time they took me off my meds so they could retest me. I gave each one a copy of my blood tests anyone that knows about Low T could see I am Primary. But I was sick and went along with them. All they found was how sick they make me. The last one I seen told me to stop my T meds and I asked him how many men does he treat for Low T and he said I was his first I just got up and walked out of his office. The desk told me on the phone he treats a lot of men for Low T. And after all of this he sent me a bill.

I don't know what to tell you as far as your treatment goes it is your body and you need to make it your job to learn all you can so you know when you see a Dr. that you are getting good care.

I was on AD drugs the first 5 yrs. because the Dr.'s could not figure out what was wrong with me. So because I was off work on sick leave I let them treat me for Depression WTF 5 yrs. walking around in a fog like a Zombie. And it was Low T. not Depression I have been so stressed out in my life trying to get my life back I know what you are going through and I feel your pain. The new Dr.'s your going to see you should call them first and ask how many men do they Treat for Low T and do they test for high E2 and are they up on treating men with Thy. problems that may be causing the low T. Also ask if they us Arimidex to get high E2 down. If it is yes to all of the questions then you may have a good Dr.
Keep in touch and don't let this get you down be a fighter you will win in the end. We all go through this crap with Dr.'s.
Phil

 

[JCMC64]

Phil

Exc info bro...thx.

Yes this is exactly what 2 doctors think I may have- Hosho-however u say it- thyroid. My current Endo did some thyroid antibodies bloodwork, and the blood work indicated problems. She also did a physical exam on it for 10 mins, and estimated around 60% enlarged , with a growth on 1 side. I got an ultrasound done on it 2 weeks ago, and will find out results in 10 days when I go to see her again. She said what is happening is my Thyroid is slowly dieing...What do I know? I was focusing on hypo Thyroidism, and she is treating me as such, but said that could change after the ultra sound results . That was a blow to me (dieing thyroid comment)

The older symptoms you described in your wife is identical to what I'm exp. now!! It is totally a paralyzing exp. Whats worse is no one understands it as I don't have any outward physical symptoms-like a 2 ft Tumor sticking out my head- so they can't understand my issues. I can't get to sleep, and then I can't wake up. No energy ever. Getting up to eat and shower is like a workout!! My wife (we're seperated) makes comments all the time as to how "slow" like a snail I am. Somehow I dig as deep as I can to get to the Gym, and it is a total grind to get through my workouts. Since I've been on Synthroid it has definately helped (got me back in the gym at least), but I'm comparing it to when I was suicidal for 2 years...so can't really compare it to that! The suicidal issue has subsided to a managable level, but I KNOW i'm not right yet. I did ask for Armour through my PCP last Oct. (who first tried to treat this for 6 months) and I he did switch it...but it was such a low dose. I immediately slid backwards, so he went back to Synthroid (I knew nothing at the time about hypo-thyroid)... Its been such a frustrating Roller coaster...He then threw in some AI's when I told him about Suicidal issues for last 2 years. Man has my body been through some wacked shit - AAS, Pro hormones, suppressed T, thyroid issues, all sorts of drugs\supps. The funny thing is someone could read this and go "WTF'n idiot"...but I constantly deal with a Brain Fog for 5 years, I never could add 1+1 to get to the underlying issue. I crashed so fast at around age 36-38, before I knew what was going on I was in this mental prison. I even went to couple of docs, they did brain scans, and other test, but didn't think of a simple thing like a TSH test until a new PCP order one last Aug. And he still didn't want a T test!! "Not necessary". I said "very necessary.

This is still all new to me, and I'm sure I'm boring the shit out of many here that of heard these kinda stories over and over...."Only in America..."

Sure feels great to talk to someone who can relate to this though! Kinda like free therapy!!

 

[mranak]

Endocrinologists are usually pretty good at Thyroid disorders. It is usually best to resolve that before doing TRT.

Any chance your endo will give you a prescription for testosterone cypionate at 100mg/week?

Personally, I would stop the DIM and the 6-oxo. 6-oxo isn't a proper treatment for hypogonadism.

 

[pmgamer18]

NO you are not boring the shit out of anyone and if they are they are at the wrong group. This is what this and other groups are for. I feel I went through hell and got my life back so I am passing it forward and when you get there do the same. It sounds like your Dr. is on the right track and yes evenly your Thy. will die but when and as long as it is working the Syn. will be good when you Thy. is not working good but then it will start working again and you will feel crazy on Thy. meds. This is why they killed my wife's Thy. but they never believed her that the Syn. was not working. Now if your Dr. switched you to Armour you can't start on a high does it will drive you nuts. You have to go up in 15 to 30 mg units every 2 to 4 weeks. My wife is now doing 120 mgs. and she is feeling great.

Let me tell you what happened to me I came down with Low t when I was 40 yrs. old. I felt the same as you getting up and going to work was like the biggest job I every had I kept pushing my self until till I crashed. My Dr. put me on sick leave and started doing tests it is a long story. The end result was they told me I am depressed and need to go on AD meds.
WTF this made me feel worse. Now comes my wife after 5 yrs. of being off work on sick leave more then I was at work my BCBC told the head Dr. they wonted to know why I was not getting better. The Ass hole told them that I liked being Depressed and did not want to get better. Saying this messed up my job and my marriage. My wife turned into a Fem-A-Nazi Bitch and be gain making my life a living hell when I got sick and could not make it to work. We at the time were married for over 25 yrs. I got put on prozac and it slowed down my voiding and I got a bad bladder infection and had to see an Uro this Dr. told me he feels I have low T and don't need to be on all of these AD drugs. I was on so much I had to go into Re-Hab to get off them. My wife and I were getting a divorce when I found out it was low T causing all my problems. We were near signing the papers when she found out I was doing very good and that a new Dr. had taken over my treatment and tried to get back with me but I was not for it because to me anyone that would treat the sick husband like she did is nuts. So I told her to go see a head Dr. and get her head straight and I will not go though with the divorce. We are dam happy now so think about it.

What the Dr.'s did to my wife's Thy. was over 20 yrs. ago so I can't say what they do now but as long as your Thy. is trying to keep working the meds will play hell with you. I would say once you get the Thy. fixed the rest will come together and you will have your life back.
Phil

 

[JCMC64]

Thx Phil,

Yes i have read your older post, and I am aware of your story. My story is very similar, but just over a shorter time span!

I will find out next week results of my Thyroid Ultrasound.

Thx again for all your input...I have found a DR this week that will consult with Swale...some good news!!

 

[pmgamer18]

Good I hope it all works out for you.
Phil

 

[SWALE]

WOW! What a story. I am relieved things are coming back together for you.

 

[JCMC64]

Swale

Ygm