Comparative Erythropoiesis (Increases to Hematocrit) by & between AAS Including What We Know about EQ & the Apparent Counterexample of Trenbolone

[Live_Evil]

Comparative Erythropoiesis (Increases to Hematocrit) by & between AAS Including What We Know about EQ & the Apparent Counterexample of Trenbolone

Author: Type-IIx

Comparative potencies to increase hematocrit (HCT) & hemoglobin (Hb)

Nandrolone (decanoate > phenylpropionate) > Anadrol (Oxymetholone) > Testosterone (propionate > cypionate > enanthate). [1].

Discussion

While Testosterone is modestly erythropoietic, this effect becomes significant at doses greater than peak myotrophic‡ & androgenic response. [2]. Methyltestosterone is not significantly erythropoietic and highly androgenic, the same goes for Cheque drops & Halotestin (potently androgenic and not significantly erythropoietic). [2].

Dianabol possesses ideal features as a hematinic agent: at doses equating to 0.6 mg per k.g. daily in man, significant myotrophic and erythropoietic activity is observed (in rodent) without androgenicity. [2]. Masteron's erythropoietic potency is significant in man [3] and rat [4]. This feature of Masteron is dissociated from its relatively weakened myotrophic potency.

Anadrol is consistently demonstrated as a potent stimulator of erythropoiesis in man [3] and rat [4], though is associated with considerable hepatotoxicity. In aplastic anemia cases, 80% of patients saw mild-to-marked alterations in liver function given 17AAs Dianabol & Anadrol versus a mere 26% given Masteron & Primo Ace (oral) at doses ranging from 0.25 - 3.0 mg/kg/day [3]. Noteworthy, however, is the high background of liver dysfunction comorbid with aplastic anemia (24%); as well as normalization of liver function in patients switched from the 17AAs (Anadrol & Dianabol) to non-17AA oral androgens Masteron & Primo Ace [3].

Is EQ is Particularly Erythropoietic?

From [2], we can say that there is no class effect of androst-1,4-dien-3-ones (e.g., EQ, Dianabol) in augmenting erythropoiesis. While the most potent hematinic agent assayed was of this class (Dianabol), 17β-hydroxy-2-methyl-androst-1,4-dien-3-one (a 2-methyl generally decreases androgenicity; an apparent exception to this, then, is present here) and 11β,17β-dihydroxy-17-methyl-androst-1,4-dien-3-one (an 11β-hydroxyl substituent added to an androst-1,4-dien-3-one serves only to hinder potency unlike in the 19-nortestosterone series or in the presence of a 9α-fluoro substituent) lacked any particular potency in this regard. [2]. See †, below.

General Rule (Androgenicity is Inversely Related to Hematopoietic Potency)

Nandrolone, Anadrol, Dianabol, Masteron, and Primobolan are more potent stimulators of erythropoiesis than Testosterone. Halotestin, Cheque drops, and Methyltestosterone, while potently androgenic, do not significantly stimulate hematinic activity.

If there is a general rule with respect to AAS’ hematopoietic potencies, it is that androgenic potency is inversely related to hematopoietic potency.

Still, if AAS are used at doses that are above those which are maximally stimulatory of N retention‡ (i.e., > peak myotropic response), one should expect that this general rule will not necessarily hold.

Trenbolone as an Apparent Exception to the Rule

The case of Trenbolone presents an illustration of this phenomenon of the general rule not applying at very high doses. To reiterate, AAS used at doses that are above those which are maximally stimulatory of N retention‡ (i.e., > peak myotropic response), one should expect that this general rule will not necessarily hold.

Trenbolone, as acetate, is according to bro-science, to be used at a 350 mg/w dose for a novice. This is, however, a remarkably high dose for this drug. On a molar (per-mg) basis, 350 mg of trenbolone acetate posesses approximately 5.5-fold the AR activation potency as 350 mg of testosterone enanthate. That is to say, 350 mg of trenbolone acetate is equivalent in AR potency to > 1,900 mg/w of testosterone enanthate. Since the hazards or health risks germane to trenbolone are mostly AR-mediated, but (e.g., cardiovascular risks, electrolyte disturbances and therefore renal/kidney risks) are also mediated by its antagonism of the MR (mineralocorticoid receptor). An often reported side effect by trenbolone users is appetite supression. This is indicative of acute toxicity. Since AAS (at therapeutic doses) increase appetite as a class effect, the experience of reduced appetite is indicative of excessive dosing and acute toxicity.

†: By this rule, EQ, being particularly well tolerated in practice by women, one might – speculatively – follow through on this line of reasoning to consider EQ as a candidate for inclusion into this class of weak (or “attenuated”) androgens, and by extension, potent hematinic agents.

‡: Maximal stimulation of N retention is not the only mechanism by which AAS exert their effects on muscle size (↑) and fat mass (↓).

______________________
References:

[1] Gorshein, D., Murphy, S., & Gardner, F. H. (1973). Comparative study on the erythropoietic effects of androgens and their mode of action. Journal of Applied Physiology, 35(3), 376–378. doi:10.1152/jappl.1973.35.3.376
[2] Molinari PF, Rosenkrantz H. Erythropoietic activity and androgenic implications of 29 testosterone derivatives in orchiectomized rats. J Lab Clin Med. 1971 Sep;78(3):399-410.
[3] Sanchez-Medal L, Gomez-Leal A, Duarte L, Guadalupe Rico M. Anabolic androgenic steroids in the treatment of acquired aplastic anemia. Blood. 1969 Sep;34(3):283-300.
[4] Duarte, L., Sanchez Medal, L., Labardini, J., & Arriaga, L. (1967). The Erythropoietic Effects of Anabolic Steroids. Experimental Biology and Medicine, 125(4), 1030–1032. doi:10.3181/00379727-125-32268

I'm only a couple paragraphs in, and like normal, I have to give your post a like. I massively appreciate your adherence to literature while taking the very anecdotes we only experience as regular users into account. Great post, like always.

 

[readalot]

I’m sorry, who are you and what are you talking about?

Maybe I have you confused with someone else? You are not the the same Iron that used to post at TNation?

I am readalot who used to post at TNation.

iron_yuppie

BB1818 at proton mail dot com

forums.t-nation.com

readalot

The Community for Enhanced Fitness

forums.t-nation.com

So crushed you don't remember our times together lol. My apology if you are some other Yuppie.

 

[Iron_Yuppie]

Maybe I have you confused with someone else? You are not the the same Iron that used to post at TNation?

I am readalot who used to post at TNation.

iron_yuppie

BB1818 at proton mail dot com

forums.t-nation.com

readalot

The Community for Enhanced Fitness

forums.t-nation.com

So crushed you don't remember our times together lol. My apology if you are some other Yuppie.

I thought the name sounded familiar! Hope you’ve been well, man.

 

[readalot]

I thought the name sounded familiar! Hope you’ve been well, man.

Hey I am doing a lot better than I was. I am vertical and leveraging modest amounts of androgens. Staying away from a 3rd forum ban. It is nice over here.

How about you? I hope you are doing great.

 

[Iron_Yuppie]

Hey I am doing a lot better than I was. I am vertical and leveraging modest amounts of androgens. Staying away from a 3rd forum ban. It is nice over here.

How about you? I hope you are doing great.

The last two years have been…interesting. Not altogether productive, but interesting nonetheless.

 

[Type-IIx]

It doesn’t. In both the existing studies and in my own experience it has no effect on HCT.

Trestolone/Ment significantly increases my hematocrit levels!

What did you notice body composition wise with the high trest? Better pumps and increased sex drive with low to moderate dosages. I had to really increase the dosage of Trestolone significantly to get additional strength gains when used in conjunction with a test base.

www.professionalmuscle.com

 

[Iron_Yuppie]

Trestolone/Ment significantly increases my hematocrit levels!

What did you notice body composition wise with the high trest? Better pumps and increased sex drive with low to moderate dosages. I had to really increase the dosage of Trestolone significantly to get additional strength gains when used in conjunction with a test base.

www.professionalmuscle.com

Wow, you found a guy using 57x the clinical dose who had a reaction not seen in trials? I for one am shocked.

 

[Type-IIx]

Wow, you found a guy using 57x the clinical dose who had a reaction not seen in trials? I for one am shocked.

Still not arguing for its sake; motivated solely by the data bro!

 

[Iron_Yuppie]

Still not arguing for its sake; motivated solely by the data bro!

The data are mixed when you include guys using full retard doses along with other steroids. Without that included the bias leans towards the thing that I said forever ago. Nothing has changed, but for some reason you’ve got a real bee in your bonnet about this. (I don’t care why, please don’t tell me)

 

[Type-IIx]

The data are mixed when you include guys using full retard doses along with other steroids. Without that included the bias leans towards the thing that I said forever ago. Nothing has changed, but for some reason you’ve got a real bee in your bonnet about this. (I don’t care why, please don’t tell me)

Sorry to have responded to you, it wasn't my intention to provoke anger, only to encourage you to post your bloodwork if willing.

 

[Iron_Yuppie]

Sorry to have responded to you, it wasn't my intention to provoke anger, only to encourage you to post your bloodwork if willing.

First page is 2/2021 after being on MENT and no testosterone for six weeks. HCT is 54.2 at this point.

[Side note: On 8/2020 HCT was 59.6. I know I had blood work done in between 8/2020 and 2/2021 but I cannot find that record. I know I was at 59.9 at that point, but for whatever reason I can’t find that specific result. I believe it was done at my doctor’s office (rather than the clinic I previously used) but it wasn’t included in the stack they gave me.]

Next page is 5/2021 ~19 weeks on MENT. Note that TT is 35 ng/dL which should be a clear indication that I’m not on exogenous testosterone at that point. HCT at 49.5 (largest drop I’ve ever experienced).

Final page is 12/2021 after dropping MENT in late November. From early October to late November I had added 100mg/w of testosterone to the MENT, so this last page represents call it six weeks back on testosterone and about two weeks off the MENT. You can see HCT jumped back to 51.6, which isn’t a ton, but for such a short period of time it’s something.

Keep in mind that I attempt to have all of these blood draws mimic similar conditions, meaning AM fasted, after a workout, and as hydrated as I can be. I’m not perfect but I do take seriously my efforts to make sure that the results are under consistent circumstances so that I don’t inadvertently skew something by making a major change right before blood is drawn.

This is all the relevant information from that timeframe that I have.

 

[Type-IIx]

First page is 2/2021 after being on MENT and no testosterone for six weeks. HCT is 54.2 at this point.

[Side note: On 8/2020 HCT was 59.6. I know I had blood work done in between 8/2020 and 2/2021 but I cannot find that record. I know I was at 59.9 at that point, but for whatever reason I can’t find that specific result. I believe it was done at my doctor’s office (rather than the clinic I previously used) but it wasn’t included in the stack they gave me.]

Next page is 5/2021 ~19 weeks on MENT. Note that TT is 35 ng/dL which should be a clear indication that I’m not on exogenous testosterone at that point. HCT at 49.5 (largest drop I’ve ever experienced).

Final page is 12/2021 after dropping MENT in late November. From early October to late November I had added 100mg/w of testosterone to the MENT, so this last page represents call it six weeks back on testosterone and about two weeks off the MENT. You can see HCT jumped back to 51.6, which isn’t a ton, but for such a short period of time it’s something.

Keep in mind that I attempt to have all of these blood draws mimic similar conditions, meaning AM fasted, after a workout, and as hydrated as I can be. I’m not perfect but I do take seriously my efforts to make sure that the results are under consistent circumstances so that I don’t inadvertently skew something by making a major change right before blood is drawn.

This is all the relevant information from that timeframe that I have.

Thank you, brother! This is good data!

 

[Type-IIx]

Next page is 5/2021 ~19 weeks on MENT. Note that TT is 35 ng/dL which should be a clear indication that I’m not on exogenous testosterone at that point. HCT at 49.5 (largest drop I’ve ever experienced).

What was your MENT dosage at this time, for the ~19 weeks?

 

[Iron_Yuppie]

What was your MENT dosage at this time, for the ~19 weeks?

2mg/d for that whole time, though I may have started the first two weeks at 1mg but I can’t remember now. I went up to 5mg for a few weeks, then 10, then 15 (was ramping up to a planned blast), that’s when BP got way out of hand, suffered an arrhythmia out of nowhere, and I bailed entirely. That chunk covered maybe seven weeks total at the end (October-November 2021). But the majority of the time was at 2mg daily.

 

[Type-IIx]

2mg/d for that whole time, though I may have started the first two weeks at 1mg but I can’t remember now. I went up to 5mg for a few weeks, then 10, then 15 (was ramping up to a planned blast), that’s when BP got way out of hand, suffered an arrhythmia out of nowhere, and I bailed entirely. That chunk covered maybe seven weeks total at the end (October-November 2021). But the majority of the time was at 2mg daily.

Really good info, thanks bro. So Hb & HCT were still elevated out of range at 2 mg/w, but this was better than whatever testosterone dose you used. Makes sense.

 

[Iron_Yuppie]

Really good info, thanks bro. So Hb & HCT were still elevated out of range at 2 mg/w, but this was better than whatever testosterone dose you used. Makes sense.

My HCT was out of range even before I began TRT. I think the first round of blood work I ever did it landed at ~48. At one point I know I got as low as 47 (September 2021 maybe?) and that’s the lowest I’d ever seen. Neither of my doctors have ever been worried when it’s within that 49-52 area since that’s always been ok for me. It’s when it gets to 54 and above that we started to be concerned.

 

[Type-IIx]

My HCT was out of range even before I began TRT. I think the first round of blood work I ever did it landed at ~48. At one point I know I got as low as 47 (September 2021 maybe?) and that’s the lowest I’d ever seen. Neither of my doctors have ever been worried when it’s within that 49-52 area since that’s always been ok for me. It’s when it gets to 54 and above that we started to be concerned.

That's reasonable too, ≤ 52% HCT is within the range at which TRT users generally sit, without any clinically significant risk elevation for cardiovascular-thrombotic events.

 

[Jaxino]

I would like to know why not a single steroid, stims erythropoiesis for me.... Performance wise it will be good to have 17ish of hemoglobin....

 

[AlwaysHungry]

You consider lucky thick blood can easily stop a great blast is a common problem a lot of users have

 

[jdubzzz44]

That's reasonable too, ≤ 52% HCT is within the range at which TRT users generally sit, without any clinically significant risk elevation for cardiovascular-thrombotic events.

I did bloodwork at Labcorp though marek on December 15th which they didn’t process until 2 weeks later on the 29th and got the following results
Rbc 6.38
Hemoglobin 18.6
Hematocrit 58.0

Retest at a quest lab 19 days later and got results same day
Rbc 5.46
Hemoglobin 17.2
Hematocrit 50.4

Was the first high reading because the blood sat for 2 weeks?