Confused about training bros

[TheBigE]

I've been lifting now for about 8 years. I'm 6' 250 lb's 8%bf. I read the stickies on this page in regards to training methodology and supercompensation theory and now I'm really confused. I've always trained with the general idea that if your not horribly sore after most of your workouts, your doing something wrong. I've always seen it as laziness and inability to motivate oneself. Lateral thinking has led me to believe this is a primary factor determining a successful workout. This seems to be in conflict with some of the issues discussed in the sticky. Now I'm pissed off because I don't know if I've been doing the right thing or not. I don't lift when I'm sore. I don't know whether I want size or power (why not both?). I usually do 2 to 3 sets of 8-12 reps on squats, deads, and bench with occassional 20's or drop sets for variety. If I ever was to do a light day, I would rep the fuck out of whetever measley little weight I used until I felt like vomitting. This is the type of intensity I employ for every single workout period. How can this be counterproductive so long as I get adequate rest? Is that not similar to Dorian Yates strategy (albeit he only usually did 1 set)?
People are always amazed by my intensity (if you measure intensity by the amount of heart, and ability to squeeze out 5 more reps when it looks like you can't do 1 more) and I live by this! I squat 550lb's for 2X10, deadlift 525 for 2X10, bench 365 for 2X7, and can curl 90lb dumbells iso-laterally for 10 strict and slow reps on a preacher bench. I've powerlifted before, but I only use a belt now for equipment. To me, impressive would be more like 550 on bench for 10, 700 on squats for 10, 700 on deads for 10, and weigh 300lb's at 4%bf! Can someone set me straight on this whole soreness hangup, and the concept that "lifting without pushing yourself to your puking limit" is somehow beneficial and not just a smokescreen for some pussy's laziness. Help guys. I don't want to lose my "intensity" these next few workouts because I'm unsure of what I'm doing all of the sudden...

"Who is your daddy and what does he do?" kindergarden cop

Edog

 

[Ramstein II]

I think your reaction is completely natural and understandable. Many bodybuilders experience this reality check feeling when they start learning about the other way to build a mouse trap. I think youll find that nobody here will say that working out and then resting until soreness goes away wont produce gains. It will. Judging by your stats it has worked very well for you. I think the more frequent training programs you see here based on 2 Factor Theory (2FT) are another way to get there. Many believe it may be a faster way. Maybe once youre there so to speak, its not as important. Im not sure about that.

What I would tell you about launching off into a 2FT program is to get the feel for what youre goal is. In the typical supercompensation style bodybuilding program the goal is often to blast the muscle until all fibers are fatigued. The idea is to fatigue the muscle to the point that it will want to be bigger and stronger to avoid getting so fatigued again. The CNS takes a beating though. In a 2FT program the goal is to stimulate the growth process through exposure to load (more so than through complete muscle depletion) without overtaxing the CNS so that the muscle can be trained again sooner for more load exposure. When the CNS fatigue accumulates you drop off intensity and volume and dont let yourself enter the CNS overtraining zone.

Its almost hard to explain, but the workouts feel different. You start to view the workout as a dose of medicine, like a dose of load exposure. Thats not to say the workouts arent hard. They are, but the goal is not complete destruction of the muscle. Youll find that your soreness will be much less on this program.
I can only tell you my personal experience with this 2FT method. First, Im an advanced/senior guy, like you. Ive been doing this forever. So gains of any kind advanced people are impressive. Honestly, I havent grown heavier, but then again Im probably at my genetic limit of size (without getting fat and bulky anyway). What has changed on me is hardness. The muscles always feel tight and ready to go. Before, on the supercompensation programs my muscles would get flat and almost mushy between workouts. I see more striations, density, and hardness. I always thought I had thick skin and couldnt look dry and hard. I just needed a different program. This has been the answer for me. Hope this helps.

 

[AnimalMass]

Ramstein,

Absolutely phenominal answer. I agree with everything you said down to the last word.

Matt

ps - as a side note, BigE, you mentioned, "To me, impressive would be more like 550 on bench for 10, 700 on squats for 10, 700 on deads for 10, and weigh 300lb's at 4%bf!" - First off, as far as I know just about no one in history has ever benched 550 for 10, done 700 ass to ankles for 10 or deadlifted 700 by 10. It's possible that all these feats have been done maybe once or twice, but guaranteed it wasn't the same guy. Benching 600x1, squatting 800x1, and deadlifting 800x1 (all raw) would make you one of the top 5-10 strongest people on the planet. Furthermore, 300lbs at 4% is only achieved by one or two Olympia competitors and those guys are all abotu ready to die when they're on stage. However, your aspirations, heart, and desire are most certainly admirable.

 

[getswoll]

Ramstein,

Absolutely phenominal answer. I agree with everything you said down to the last word.

Matt

ps - as a side note, BigE, you mentioned, "To me, impressive would be more like 550 on bench for 10, 700 on squats for 10, 700 on deads for 10, and weigh 300lb's at 4%bf!" - First off, as far as I know just about no one in history has ever benched 550 for 10, done 700 ass to ankles for 10 or deadlifted 700 by 10. It's possible that all these feats have been done maybe once or twice, but guaranteed it wasn't the same guy. Benching 600x1, squatting 800x1, and deadlifting 800x1 (all raw) would make you one of the top 5-10 strongest people on the planet. Furthermore, 300lbs at 4% is only achieved by one or two Olympia competitors and those guys are all abotu ready to die when they're on stage. However, your aspirations, heart, and desire are most certainly admirable.

Absolutely.

GS

 

[TheBigE]

What references do you know of that deal with structuring a 2FT workout? I don't know anything about setting up a program based on this. As far as Animal Mass's comments, I am happy to know that nobody has ever accomplished all of the aforementioned lifts at that rep range, maybe that will be a "super goal" if you will. I was also not aware that I was so close to being in the top 5-10 based on those one rep maxes, although doing all of those raw would be a challenging goal. What do you guys think about pulling a vehicle via harness or strongman oriented training in its relation to size and or strength?

 

[AnimalMass]

Read the DFHT sticky. That will get you started on setting up a program. Then I'll work with you from there.

Matt

 

[J DUB]

If you want to understand periodization and how to apply it to your workouts, try a book called Periodization Breakthrough by Fleck and Kraemer (two of the best exercise scientists). This is easily the best introductory book out there, and was written for people just like yourself.

 

[AnimalMass]

Yeah it's really good. Also, "Designing Resistance Training Programs" (is that the title J Dub?) - by Fleck and Kraemer is also excellent.

Matt

 

[Ramstein II]

Thank you AM

Animal Mass,
glad to nail one. I'm just thankful for guys like you who have brought all of us so much useful information. I do what I can to spread the word.

 

[Freddy]

I train under these principals, and I don't consider them a "smokescreen for pussies". Here's my wednesday workout:

1.) Squat or deadlift to a 1 rep max. Work up to the max rep through 10 sets.
2.) Olympic squats: 2 sets of 5 reps. Done ass to the grass, no belt, no wraps, no suit or equipment of any kind.
3.) Good mornings: 5 sets of 5, back parallel to the ground
4.) Reverse hypers: 5 set of 8
5.) Abs: 5x8
6.) calves: 4x10
7.) Side bends: 5x8
8.) DB shrugs: 5x8
9.) bicep curls: 2x whatever

Give that a try to find out how pussy it is. And no, it doesn't make me sore.

 

[Madcow2]

Can someone set me straight on this whole soreness hangup, and the concept that "lifting without pushing yourself to your puking limit" is somehow beneficial and not just a smokescreen for some pussy's laziness. Help guys. I don't want to lose my "intensity" these next few workouts because I'm unsure of what I'm doing all of the sudden...

Here's an easy way to look at it.

You can work like an absolute dog putting in herculean efforts with discipline that is completely worthy of respect by anyone on the planet. However, if your efforts move you 4 steps to the side and 1 step forward there is a fair amount of inefficiency. You are certainly working hard by anyone's standard but what you aren't doing is working smart. Hard moves you distance and smart provides you direction.

The ideal way to approach your training is to first work smart which is setting up your program (and not a BBing - "do 14 sets for chest, come back next week and hope you are stronger" routine). Your plan sets your forward direction. Now, you go to the gym and bust your ass at the execution (working hard). The difference is that now all 5 steps of hard work move you forward.

Like a hard working man digging a trench with a stick - the lazy man will always beat him using a shovel. But give the hard working man the shovel and he will show you how a trench should be dug.

First, ensure you work smart. Then, bust your ass and work hard.