cycling 5 X 5 and hst

[chiseled21]

I have been doing 5 X 5 for the past 4 weeks. I am definitly into my 5 rep maxes and am feeling like it is time to back off a little. I am not a powerlifter and am not concerned with peaking. 5 X 5 is a great workout and has everything that I want for mass building and overall muscle stimulation. Since I do not plan on peaking I was wondering if cycling 5 X 5 with an HST style workout would be OK. How I would go about this is doing HST for four weeks using the 15 and 10 rep schemes and when I get to the 5 rep schemes beginning the 5 X 5 program again. I think that a workout such as this will keep the muscles guessing and not overkill the CNS. Please comment...

 

[Grizzly]

I think you should just follow it through, at least for the first time. Now, I might be fatter and lazyer than you, but I think 3X3 is just about the coolest shit ever. LOL Try it, you'll like it.

 

[chiseled21]

I will give it a try. However I do have somewhat of a hidden agenda; I am going to St. Martin in a couple of weeks so I am interested in getting my beach muscles pumped and pretty. I figure hst using high reps will make it easier to cut up further for the beach( damn I hate admitting that my number 1 concern right now is definition). I have been trying to add more cardio to the 5 X5 but it is affecting the lifts to the point to where the gains are slowing and I am tiring too quickly. I have been dieting and doing AM cardio so my calories have not been as they should be for a true 5 X 5 anyway. And grizz any body that does 5 X 5 and still trains in martial arts is not lazy in any way.

 

[Freddy]

Do the 3x3 like you're supposed to, but add in additional cardio if you're worried about being lean.

I think doing intervals on off days, either sprinting or on the bike, would be great.

And if you haven't cleaned up your diet thats much more important than how many reps you do.

The 5x5 works best if done for a long time. The first cycle isn't as great as the 2nd, as you really aren't used to the work load yet.

Its best to stick with the 5x5 for at least 6 months, if not a year. I suppose you could only do it for 1 cycle if you wanted, but I would never cut it half-way through. The 3x3 part is just as important as the 5x5.

 

[road warrior]

Keep on following the 5x5 guidelines and add 90+ minutes cardio btwn 65-80% max heart rate ed.

You'll be so ripped you'll need tape

road warrior

 

[Madcow2]

It's not a matter of peaking, the 3x3 portion is designed for basic deloading. The 5x5 weeks load (stimulate) and the 3x3 weeks deload (allow the body to recover and adapt). This isn't about peaking this is about allowing the body to recover and adapt from the recovery deficit you've accrued over the past weeks. This is why the bulk of the gains tend to show up late in the program which I'm guessing you've never run through before.

Get your cardio in and monitor your calories. Leave the workout methodology on autopilot and concern yourself only with lifting in the gym. You will have your progress and look good. The first time someone new to these runs this they invariably screw up the weight selection so the results only get better the second time. Give this thing a chance - there is nothing you can do to make it significantly better for general strength or hypertrophy. There are some things you can tweak eventually but you should run this through 3 complete times before you do anything more complex than swap out an exercise or two (inclines for military or cleans for rows etc...). You need to gain experience with the workout and your body's tolerances/capabilities first.

 

[kasper2133]

It's not a matter of peaking, the 3x3 portion is designed for basic deloading. The 5x5 weeks load (stimulate) and the 3x3 weeks deload (allow the body to recover and adapt). This isn't about peaking this is about allowing the body to recover and adapt from the recovery deficit you've accrued over the past weeks. This is why the bulk of the gains tend to show up late in the program which I'm guessing you've never run through before.

In another thread Animalmass pointed out that you should only do the 5x5 part of the program if your interested in hypertrophy, and cycle down 15-20% and start over when you cant increase the weights further. Only do the 3x3 if your interested in strenght.

 

[monsoon]

I think you should just follow it through, at least for the first time. Now, I might be fatter and lazyer than you, but I think 3X3 is just about the coolest shit ever. LOL Try it, you'll like it.

me too, I only have one week left boo hoo.

 

[Freddy]

In another thread Animalmass pointed out that you should only do the 5x5 part of the program if your interested in hypertrophy, and cycle down 15-20% and start over when you cant increase the weights further. Only do the 3x3 if your interested in strenght.

If AM gave you another method of deloading, you can try that. However, the 3x3 method is much more tried and true.

Its important to deload. As Madcow said, if you don't deload, you won't see most of the gains.

 

[kasper2133]

Here's my question to AM

After reading JS post about the program, i get the idea that he means only to peak if you are interested in strength. If its hypertrophy your after, do you just keep pushing on the 5x5, and cycle the weight down and start over, when you cant complete the reps?

AM's reply

Yes, you really only need to peak if you are aiming for strength. If you are doing it for hypertrophy, then start conservatively and run 3-4 week cycles with it. Try and set records on the 3rd or 4th week, and then back off the weights and start over.

You basically want to reduce poundages by 15% or so - basically something that you can complete pretty easy when you start the program back up again, and shoot for new 5x5 maxes and 5RMs by the 3rd or 4th week. Then continue to go for new maxes until you fail, then drop back down again

When you drop down, you only cycle the weight down, and not volume like in your DFHT program. Correct? RIGHT - BECAUSE VOLUME IS REALLY LOW ANYWAY - WE'RE ONLY TALKING 3-4 EXERCISES PER DAY, SO WHAT WOULD YOU DROP?

 

[chiseled21]

I did mis read the post by JS; I was not aware that the 3 X 3 is a form of deloading. Volume wise it would be de-loading; I guess I was scared when I saw three reps because that obviosly means more weight and I am feeling like I am ready to de-load a little. I started this program having a pretty good idea as to where to start at considering that I had been doing HST cycles prior to this so I feel that the weights I started at and ended with were adequate. 5 X5 is an excellent program....however when cutting I have been having a hard time de-programming myself away from higher reps( Since I began training it was always drilled "high reps for definition and low reps for bulking".)

 

[Freddy]

If all you want is a dual factor program good for BBing, and you don't care about strength, then why not do HST?

 

[chiseled21]

I had been doing HST workouts to this point. I am concerned with strength and gaining mass and those were my weight trainning goals for these winter months(as many are). My girlfriend booked us a trip to St. Marten the second week of february and I wanted to cut some but was in the middle of my 5 X5. I was not sure if 5 x 5 would be good for cutting so I figured I would do hst for a couple of weeks prior to going. I have since decided against that and have just continued through with the 5 X 5. My diet has been good and I have increased the cardio, my obliques and abs are coming along nicely and my overall condition and vascularity are pretty good. Thanks for all the advice; now if there was a workout to make my cock hang to my calves I would be ready for the 6 nude beaches.

 

[Madcow2]

In another thread Animalmass pointed out that you should only do the 5x5 part of the program if your interested in hypertrophy, and cycle down 15-20% and start over when you cant increase the weights further. Only do the 3x3 if your interested in strenght.

My first thoughts are that I have no idea the context in which this was discussed or what else might be missing from that conversation. AM knows his stuff and we've been on other boards together. If there's a thread that can be linked I'd be happy to read it later.

The main issue is that the 5x5 phase is high volume and a lot of the loading comes in the form of volume (think about the Wednesday squats and their purpose). You'd effectively be keeping volume high the entire time and only backing down 15-20% from your maxes - I'm not convinced it would adequately provide for sufficient deloading in most people and running this back to back would bury them sooner or later (and yeah, there are some elite lifters who can handle huge training loads but this comes from years of conditioning and a good bit of genetic potential). There are plenty of alternative methods to deload, the 3x3 scheme employed is just one of them and although the reps are low it's not exactly a 100% strength program - there are plenty of synergistic benefits to BBers training in this rep range for part of a training cycle. My thoughts anyway.

 

[kasper2133]

My first thoughts are that I have no idea the context in which this was discussed or what else might be missing from that conversation. AM knows his stuff and we've been on other boards together. If there's a thread that can be linked I'd be happy to read it later.

The main issue is that the 5x5 phase is high volume and a lot of the loading comes in the form of volume (think about the Wednesday squats and their purpose). You'd effectively be keeping volume high the entire time and only backing down 15-20% from your maxes - I'm not convinced it would adequately provide for sufficient deloading in most people and running this back to back would bury them sooner or later (and yeah, there are some elite lifters who can handle huge training loads but this comes from years of conditioning and a good bit of genetic potential). There are plenty of alternative methods to deload, the 3x3 scheme employed is just one of them and although the reps are low it's not exactly a 100% strength program - there are plenty of synergistic benefits to BBers training in this rep range for part of a training cycle. My thoughts anyway.

Good post.

The thread is here:

https://thinksteroids.com/community/threads/134233321

In here AM points out its a low volume program, so we have some conflicting opinions here..

 

[Madcow2]

Okay, that thread is all over the place with multiple programs and purposes. I see how you might be construing AM to have said that but you better pin him down on it specifically.

I don't see anywhere that he refers to 5x5 as low volume. It certainly doesn't have you lifting on a demanding schedule as far as frequency is concerned but there is no room left if you set the weight correctly. In the first phase the volume (weekly volume) is as high as one can generally handle under those conditions and therein lies the growth stimulus. The 3x3 phase is significantly lower volume and slightly higher intensity hence the deload.

**1**The first thing in my quote below is him talking about peaking in the context of "triples and eventually singles". This is not the standard 5x5. If you further deload and incorporate an additional period of higher intensity low volume you will further recover from the initial deficit of the volume phase as well as any accrued from the 3x3 phase and performance will rise as you tune the CNS and practice with maximal weights at the end. This is peaking for strength- not the basic 3x3 at the end of the 5x5.

**2**You may be asking about the 5x5 volume phase of the 5x5 program but I think in referencing peaking he's assuming you are talking about working into singles etc... and in refering to 5x5, he thinks you mean both phases of the workout.

**1**AM: 3) You'll only run this for about 4-6 weeks, and then we'll peak, which means we'll do a bit less frequency and go for triples and eventually singles.

**2**YOU: Also after reading JS post about the program, i get the idea that he means only to peak if you are interested in strength. If its hypertrophy your after, do you just keep pushing on the 5x5, and cycle the weight down and start over, when you cant complete the reps?

There are some references later that get convoluted but personally that thread gives some insight into your experience with this stuff because it is all over the place and you are throwing around all kinds of nuances and ideas in an effort to change the program (which is fine, when you have a good grasp of your own tolerances and how this stuff works and from your posts - that ain't you).

You should run it as written several times before changing anything. You can say what you want about hypertrophy but a muscle is meant to do work (Force X Distance) and it performs work by generating force (Mass X Acceleration). It will adaptively respond with hypertrophy to increases in total workload required within certain ranges. Low intensity and high volume work does not result in hypertrophy beyond basic fitness levels. Sooner or later one must change the mass (weight) one is working with - we'll leave acceleration out but don't underestimate the importance of that factor as clearly evidenced by the multiplication sign. Basically, if you want to grow, you have to get stronger and I believe the JS tribute thread makes specific references to the benefits of this for BBers in the different kinds of hypertrophy section if I remember right. Show me before and after pictures of anyone who has put 100lbs on his/her best 3x3 squat and I will show you additional muscle (caveates - athlete trains in rep ranges above triples/doubles/singles for at least part of their general training and caloric intake is not heavily restricted).

The problem with BBer is that they insist on customizing and tweaking things. Like anything in life, if you want to get better you have to be willing to spend a good portion of time on it over an extended period. You don't see that in a lot of the gym programs and instead you find an overreliance on anabolics to compensate. This prescedent affects their ability to work through a basic program - it's like Attention Deficit Disorder from Weider's Instinctive Training Principle running wild. From that thread, I believe you are a sufferer of this malady . Run the tried and true program a few times. See how you respond. Learn about your limits and how to set the weights correctly. That will be a much better point to begin looking at changing things.

 

[kasper2133]

About the volume he clearly says it here:

When you drop down, you only cycle the weight down, and not volume like in your DFHT program. Correct? RIGHT - BECAUSE VOLUME IS REALLY LOW ANYWAY - WE'RE ONLY TALKING 3-4 EXERCISES PER DAY, SO WHAT WOULD YOU DROP?

And here is about peaking:

3) You'll only run this for about 4-6 weeks, and then we'll peak, which means we'll do a bit less frequency and go for triples and eventually singles.

Matt

Heres my question for that:

Also after reading JS post about the program, i get the idea that he means only to peak if you are interested in strength. If its hypertrophy your after, do you just keep pushing on the 5x5, and cycle the weight down and start over, when you cant complete the reps?

And AM respons

Yes, you really only need to peak if you are aiming for strength. If you are doing it for hypertrophy, then start conservatively and run 3-4 week cycles with it. Try and set records on the 3rd or 4th week, and then back off the weights and start over

What i get from that is that he both mean 3x3 and singles as peaking.

 

[Madcow2]

I disagree with your interpretation that "both" 3x3 and singles are peaking - in that they are not separate. He is refering to a process of continually lowering volume and increasing intensity - in the case of singles to the 100% range. This whole process is peaking and peaking basically means some rather drastic deloading in preparation for competition or another event where you allow yourself to come abnormally close to full recovery and hit peak strength levels on the big day. Now you might not use it for competition but merely some gym lifting or a period of training CNS efficiency under near 100% 1RM weight. The 5x5 program does not provide for this in its 3x3 period - that should be very clear and right there - you have an example of misunderstanding.

Regardless - half that post is AM trying to figure out what you are actually doing. The other jumble is you trying to interpret instructions. The likelyhood of there being a misunderstanding is high particularly on a tangent point further down the chain. In the case of a beginner handling 3x per week squating and that volume phase run on and on every 4 weeks for any length of time is pretty low. 50% of your weeks are going to be very very hard and consist of setting records the other 2 would have to be pretty drastically reduced to allow for repeated recovery and keep in mind you are back to setting records in a constant volume environment immediately. The only factor you are moving is intensity and I don't believe it's going to be adjusted adequately to allow recovery over a period of running these back to back.

So, like I said - you had best get reclarification on that point from him. That thread is all over the place and what may appear clear to you might not even be his intended meaning. I would absolutely not change the program based upon something as convoluted as that. To be honest, even if he did mean exactly what you say, I'm of the opinion that unless other modifications are made it cannot be run continuously back to back by anyone who doesn't have some serious recuperative ability. Constant volume with only modest intensity ramping, 3x per week squating, and 50% of all weeks in the record phase, run back to back indeffinitely - doesn't make sense to me unless there is a caveate or more info.

But like I said, don't interpret what someone said - if you are going to change everything around ask them that question again very specifically because you could very well be digging yourself a hell of recovery hole.