daily hcg and androgel.

[toc67guru]

swale you answered a thread i posted stating that you felt the best trt was daily hcg and androgel.secondly was weekly test injections.
i assume you meant "secondly weekly test injections and daily hcg?"
both these protocols would obviously be at a reduced test dosage than your standard trt in "recipe for trt" as you would benefit from a small test spike of endogenous test from the LH increase from the daily hcg.
you must have a starting point when you change a patient over onto this new treatment i am only asking for this starting reference pointer.
can you give any indication of dosages you would recommend of daily hcg shots(250 iu?),androgel application(2.5 mg daily) assuming someone was using original trt protocol of 5mg androgel application daily and weekend hcg administration of hcg (2 days sat/sun at 250 iu daily).
also if injections were used instead would it therefore be 50 mg of test cyp weekly? and daily hcg at say 250 iu? if again assuming they were originaly using 100 mg of test cyp weekly and weekend hcg protocol as above.
i am very interested in your finding of better feeling of wellbeing with daily hcg and increased libido,even though people are more than happy with the original "recipe for trt."
any advice would be very much appreciated.
i know you may not be ready to share your experience of this new protocol as it maybe still in its infancy and you are still assessing it but when you first mentioned its benefits over the original "recipe for trt" i was very much intrigued and curious as i am sure are many others.we are all seeking the best therapy for our "condition" and all want the best treatment available!

 

[buck]

I believe for the transdermal approach he suggests using hcg every 3rd day, unless it has changed recently.

 

[SWALE]

Buck--You are correct in that my usual HCG Protocol is Q3D with daily Androgel. However, this is something different.

For instance, a patient of mine went too high for DHT and estrogen on 5gms per day of Androgel (it can happen). So I put him on 2.5gms oer day Androgel, and 150IU of HCG per day. Now he is at the top of normal range for Total T, and DHT and estrogen are just right. Awesome.

 

[toc67guru]

swale you mention "a patient".
i was of the understanding you were now using a third protocol with MANY PATIENTS which you were getting good feedback from of an improved feeling of wellbeing and libido which consisted of a reduced test dose(either androgel or test cyp) and DAILY hcg.these patients had obviously been using your oringinal protocol to be able to report to you the improvement of using daily hcg.
using hcg daily would require reducing test (cyp or androgel) to keep within range(blood tests).the hcg itself daily would create endogenous test production(from mimicking LH) which would therefore mean not having to supply as high a dose of exogenous test to get the desired effect.
i have read "recipe for trt" several times and understand your starting dose of either androgel (5mgs/daily) or test cyp(100mg/week) and once stabilized then using hcg(250iu) e3d with androgel or for two days prior to test cyp administration.
my query was what starting point do you use when changing a patient from the "original trt" protocol for either application(androgel or injection) when starting your "new improved" protocol and what dosage of DAILY hcg is used?

thankyou buck for your reply.my question however was in relation to swale's 3rd trt protocol and not his "recipe for trt."
i appreciate your interest.

 

[SWALE]

I have been experimenting with a different dosing schedule for Androgel/HCG TRT, besides the daily Androgel and daily HCG regimen already mentioned, but the "third protocol" is something quite different. As I have said, I'm ready to begin talking about that yet.

The dosages I employ are individualized, based upon how the patient's body responded to what I have already done.

 

[gemini]

I have been experimenting with a different dosing schedule for Androgel/HCG TRT, besides the daily Androgel and daily HCG regimen already mentioned, but the "third protocol" is something quite different. As I have said, I'm ready to begin talking about that yet.

The dosages I employ are individualized, based upon how the patient's body responded to what I have already done.

SWALE,

Do you have any information you can share about this "third protocol"?

Thanks.

 

[SWALE]

Nope. I've just always got stuff I'm thinking about and working on.

I think I made a mistake and did not proeprly answer the original question: I mean the best way to use HCG and test cyp is to use the HCG on days 5 and 6 of the injection week.

 

[gemini]

SWALE,

According to your Recipe for Success protocol for daily Androgel and HCG, it says that HCG must be taken every 3rd day. Does that mean that on every 3rd day one should take Androgel as well as HCG, or just HCG.

Are you still using this protocol or are you now using a protocol where HCG is used every day together with Androgel?

Thanks.

 

[pmgamer18]

AndorGel is everyday and the hcg is every 3rd. day.
Here is a cut & paste that SWALE should make into a stickey.
Phil
AN UPDATE TO THE CRISLER HCG PROTOCOL

By John Crisler, DO

In my paper "My Current Best Thoughts on How to Administer TRT for Men", pu=
blished in
A4M's 2004/5 Anti-Aging Clinical Protocols, I introduced a new protocol whe=
re small
doses of Human Chorionic Gonadotrophin (HCG) are regularly added to traditi=
onal TRT
(either weekly IM testosterone cypionate or daily cream/gel). The reasons a=
nd benefits of
this protocol are as follows, along with a new improvement I wish to share:=


Any physician who administers TRT will, within the first few months of doin=
g so, field
complaints from their patients because they are now experiencing troubling =
testicular
atrophy. Irrespective of the numerous and abundant benefits of TRT, men nev=
er enjoy
seeing their genitals shrinking! Testicular atrophy occurs because the depr=
essed LH level,
secondary to the HPTA suppression TRT induces, no longer supports them. It =
is well
known that HCGa Luteinizing Hormone (LH) analogwill effectively, and dram=
atically,
restore the testicles to previous form and function. It accomplishes this d=
ue to shared
moiety between the alpha subunits of both hormones.

So, that satisfies an aesthetic consideration which should not be ignored. =
Now let's delve
into the pharmacodynamics of the TRT medications. For those employing injec=
table
testosterone cypionate, the cypionate ester provides a 5-8 day half-life, d=
epending upon
the specific metabolism, activity level, and overall health of the patient.=
It is now well-
established that appropriate TRT using IM injections must be dosed at weekl=
y intervals, in
order to avoid seating the patient on a hormonal, and emotional, roller coa=
ster. Adding in
some HCG toward the end of the weekly "cycle" compensates for the drop in s=
erum
androgen levels by the half-life of the cypionate ester. Certainly the body=
thrives on
regularity, and supplementing the TRT with endogenous testosterone producti=
on at just
the right timewithout inappropriately raising androgen OR estrogen (more o=
n that later)
approximates the excellent performance stability of transdermal testostero=
ne delivery
systems for those who, for whatever reason or reasons, prefer test cyp.

But there's another metabolic reason to employ this protocol. The P450 Side=
Chain
Cleavage enzyme, which converts CHOL into pregnenolone at the initiation of=
all three
metabolic pathways CHOL serves as precursor (the sex hormones, glucocortico=
ids and
mineralcorticoids), is actively stimulated, or depressed, by LH concentrati=
ons. It is
intuitively consistent that during conditions of lowered testosterone level=
s, commensurate
increases in LH production would serve to stimulate this conversion from CH=
OL into these
pathways, thereby feeding more raw material for increased hormone productio=
n. And vice
versa. Thus the addition of HCG (which also stimulates the P450scc enzyme) =
helps restore
a more natural balance of the hormones within this pathway in patients who =
are entirely,
or even partially, HPTA-suppressed.

It is important that no more than 500IU of HCG be administered on any given=
day. There is
only just so much stimulation possible, and exceeding that not only is wast=
eful, doing so
has important negative consequences. Higher doses overly stimulate testicul=
ar aromatase,
which inappropriately raises estrogen levels, and brings on the detrimental=
effects of
same. It also causes Leydig cell desentization to LH, and we are therefore =
inducing primary
hypogonadism while perhaps treating secondary hypogonadism. 250IU QD is an =
effective,
and safe, dose. After all, we are merely replacing that which is lost to in=
hibition.

In my previous report I recommended 250IU of HCG twice per week for all TRT=
patients,
taken the day of, along with the day before, the weekly test cyp injection.=
After looking at
countless lab printouts, listening to subjective reports from patients, and=
learning more
about HCG, I am now shifting that regimen forward one day. In other words, =
my test cyp
TRT patients now take their HCG at 250IU two days before, as well as the da=
y immediately
previous to, their IM shot. All administer their HCG subcutaneously, and do=
sage may be
adjusted as necessary (I have yet to see more than 350IU per dose required)=
.

I made this change after realizing that the previous HCG protocol was boost=
ing serum
testosterone levels too much, as the test cyp serum concentrations rise, ap=
proaching its
peak at roughly the 72 hour mark. The original goal of supporting serum and=
rogen levels
with HCG had overshot its mark.

Those TRT patients who prefer a transdermal testosterone, or even testoster=
one pellets
(although I am not in favor of same), take their HCG every third day. They =
needn't concern
themselves with diminishing serum androgen levels from their testosterone d=
elivery
system. These patients will, of course, notice an increase in serum androge=
n levels above
baseline.

While HCG, as sole TRT, is still considered treatment of choice for hypogon=
adotrophic
hypogonadism by many , my experience is that it just does not bring the sam=
e subjective
benefits as pure testosterone delivery systems doeven when similar serum a=
ndrogen
levels are produced from comparable baseline values. However, supplementing=
the more
"traditional" TRT of transdermal, or injected, testosterone with HCG stabil=
izes serum
levels, prevents testicular atrophy, helps rebalance _expression of other ho=
rmones, and
brings reports of greatly increased sense of well-being and libido. My pati=
ents absolutely
love it. As time goes on, we are coming to appreciate HCG as a much more po=
werful--and
wonderful--hormone than previously given credit.

Copyright John Crisler, DO 2004. This article may, in its entirety or in pa=
rt, be reprinted
and republished without permission, provided that credit is given to its au=
thor, with
copyright notice and www.AllThingsMale.com clearly displayed as source. Wri=
tten
permission from Dr. Crisler is required for all other uses.

_________________
www.AllThingsMale.com

ANY ADVICE I MAY GIVE IN NO WAY SUBSTITUTES FOR A PROPER EVALUATION BY YOUR=

PHYSICIAN; NOR DOES IT CONSTITUTE DR/PT RELATIONSHIP, OR LIABILITY, IN ANY =
WAY .

www.AllThingsMale.com

 

[SPE]

Progesterone

SWALE, what trend in progesterone did you see when switching your patient to 2.5g androgel 150iu/day hcg? Do you think that at 150iu/day progesterone can become an issue? Also, what did the patient report as far as how they felt after the switch?

 

[SPE]

Also...

What do higher levels of progesterone do besides go against DHT? Is fat accumulation enhanced? Can it contribute to gyno?

 

[Nate92]

I am few years late to this thread...

But I wonder, when you refer to the HCG shots. Is this subcutaneous or intramuscular every three days?

 

[mikes75]

I am few years late to this thread...

But I wonder, when you refer to the HCG shots. Is this subcutaneous or intramuscular every three days?

sub

 

[biceps72]

let me jump into this late

why take HCG unless you are trying ti prevent testes atrophy? Is it for reproductive reasons??

I would stay away from HCG unless you have a valid reason to use it!!

 

[Nate92]

let me jump into this late

why take HCG unless you are trying ti prevent testes atrophy? Is it for reproductive reasons??

I would stay away from HCG unless you have a valid reason to use it!!

Let me jump back into this again . I have learned since that last post. It is for both, actually. Testicular Atrophy is a big one. But it seems that HCG will also help your testicles recove after TRT. To my belief.

 

[Michael Scally MD]

Daily hCG is prescribed by the misinformed, uninformed, and ignorant.

 

[Nate92]

Daily hCG is prescribed by the misinformed, uninformed, and ignorant.

I've heard of people doing it before. Why are you so against it?