About to start a new cycle with test c and npp. I'm using dbol for the first 4 to 5 weeks. I know it is a highly aromitizing compound so I would imagine I would start my AI right away instead of waiting a few weeks like with test e. I was only using .25mg of adex every 2 weeks on 500mg test e for my last cycle and I was fine. I'm thinking about ramping it up to .25 3x a week and see how it goes
MESO-Rx
Anabolic Steroids
Dbol AI dose
- Thread starter JayBigJ
- Start date
BigNattyDaddy
Banned
Bloodwork will give you a better answer than any of us will be able to
master.on
New Member
I'm glad you ask
Dbol aromatizes to an estrogenic derivative that can't be spotted by bloodwork.
So you have 2 options
1 Use Anadrol instead of Dbol, since it's less likely to cause gyno.
2 Use Nolvadex to block Dbol estrogen
actually there's a 3rd one
3 embrace gyno and buy a bra. They're like a dollar or two at Walmart.
D-max
Member
With 300mg test, 350mg tren, 350mg npp, and 50 mg d-bol, I use 20mg nolva eod. No AI.
Why nolva instead of AI?
Blocks estrogen at the receptor and allows your total estrogen to still be up there which to some degree is needed for growth
BigNattyDaddy
Banned
Morefyah
Banned
You don’t need Nolvadex unless you have had issues with gyno. Some people use it as a preventative measure. Nolvadex has its own nasty side effects and I don’t recommend using it until you need too.
Perfect thank you
D-max
Member
What are those "nasty" side effects?
Morefyah
Banned
Well for starters tamoxifen lowers IGF -1.
It can cause vision problems/tracers.
It is slightly carcinogenic.
It’s linked to fatty liver.
It increases the chance of getting a blood clot
It lowers free test and can cause low libido.
It can cause moodswings similar to high E2.
This is an anti - cancer drug with known side effects and should not be taken to control E2 or as a preventative measure for gyno.
If you keep E2 in check you won’t need tamoxifen for anything besides pct or cancer!
If your susceptible to gyno or have a flair on cycle I would choose raloxofien.
D-max
Member
Interesting. The reason I use tamoxifen is I didn't like the side effects from anastrozole. I feel a ton better only using it, and my cholesterol thanks me too.
BigNattyDaddy
Banned
Here's what Dr. Jim said about raloxifene and tamoxifen.
"Although Raloxifene maybe more effective than Tamo, in select patients, a cost of somewhere between $150- $250 dollars per month would preclude it's use on a routine basis for AAS associated cyclical gynecomastia.
Tamo is equally effective for ASS associated gynecomastia in the majority of patients, especially if some attempts are made at reducing the load of aromatizable AAS from the outset.
Importantly it's important to realize studies using "prepubertal gynecomastia" patients as the cohorts, although helpful to some extent, should be taken with a grain of salt since this condition reverses spontaneously in more than 95% of patients, which is in contradistinction to AAS related disease.
Moreover the comparison or concern that ANY SERM will cause bony demineralization if used over the course of a few months (as in AAS) or years (as in breast cancer) is simply not justifiable.
Furthermore the Raloxifene has actually been utilized as a form of therapy in PMP patients with osteoporosis because it's effect on BMD is minimal and possibly even PROTECTIVE
Overall although I suspect Raloxifene may be superior to other SERMs in the TX of gynecomastia, it's use should be limited to resistant cases if not for cost alone!
As JI mentioned although SERMS may result in a reduction of pre-existing gynecomastia. there IS NO EVIDENCE any SERM causes or results in cellular necrosis or apoptosis, which would be required for the therapeutic reversal to be long lasting or "permanent" (SEVERAL YEARS) as some
have claimed.
What does that mean? Fellas if you have had problems with gynecomastia previously (and have NOT had surgery for same) a SERM should be instituted BEFORE the inception of that cycle your contemplating and since the half lifeaverages about 3 DAYS, treatment should begin at least TWO WEEKS (5 half lives) prior!!!!
The lack of a "long term" effect from SERMS should be of no surprise since a markedreduction in cellular reproduction is exactly what has been observed in PMP E-2 dependent patients treated with SERMS, rather than cellular death.
One final point of EMPHASIS must be made!
At LEAST TWO WEEKS of SERM treatmentshould have passed before a therapeutic failure is declared and the dose adjusted accordingly."
"Although Raloxifene maybe more effective than Tamo, in select patients, a cost of somewhere between $150- $250 dollars per month would preclude it's use on a routine basis for AAS associated cyclical gynecomastia.
Tamo is equally effective for ASS associated gynecomastia in the majority of patients, especially if some attempts are made at reducing the load of aromatizable AAS from the outset.
Importantly it's important to realize studies using "prepubertal gynecomastia" patients as the cohorts, although helpful to some extent, should be taken with a grain of salt since this condition reverses spontaneously in more than 95% of patients, which is in contradistinction to AAS related disease.
Moreover the comparison or concern that ANY SERM will cause bony demineralization if used over the course of a few months (as in AAS) or years (as in breast cancer) is simply not justifiable.
Furthermore the Raloxifene has actually been utilized as a form of therapy in PMP patients with osteoporosis because it's effect on BMD is minimal and possibly even PROTECTIVE
Overall although I suspect Raloxifene may be superior to other SERMs in the TX of gynecomastia, it's use should be limited to resistant cases if not for cost alone!
As JI mentioned although SERMS may result in a reduction of pre-existing gynecomastia. there IS NO EVIDENCE any SERM causes or results in cellular necrosis or apoptosis, which would be required for the therapeutic reversal to be long lasting or "permanent" (SEVERAL YEARS) as some
have claimed.
What does that mean? Fellas if you have had problems with gynecomastia previously (and have NOT had surgery for same) a SERM should be instituted BEFORE the inception of that cycle your contemplating and since the half lifeaverages about 3 DAYS, treatment should begin at least TWO WEEKS (5 half lives) prior!!!!
The lack of a "long term" effect from SERMS should be of no surprise since a markedreduction in cellular reproduction is exactly what has been observed in PMP E-2 dependent patients treated with SERMS, rather than cellular death.
One final point of EMPHASIS must be made!
At LEAST TWO WEEKS of SERM treatmentshould have passed before a therapeutic failure is declared and the dose adjusted accordingly."
master.on
New Member
And because you can't fine tune AI dosage with bloodwork
since Dbol estrogenic derivative doesn't show in bloodwork.
Thus Nolva allows to block most of that (unknown amout of) Dbol estrogen.
