Differences in TT from person to person on same dose

[dmt31]

I thought this was pretty interesting and with all the post recently about a protocol for everyone to follow for their TT tests...

My boss and I use the same TRT doc, have been on TRT for approximately the same amount of time, and take the same dosage, 160mg/wk of cyp.

7 days after pinning I am consistently at 320-330. 7 days after pinning he was at 960...

Obviously he was pretty high, so the doctor has reduced his dosage, but it's interesting to say the least.

For reference, I'm 6 foot 2-3 about 250-260 lbs depending on the day i fluctuate quite a bit. He's 5 foot 8-9 and about 185-195 depending on the day...

I'm assuming our sizes have a lot to do with this, but that is a huge difference in numbers. We have the same treatment, from the same doctor, with the same treatment timing...

 

[fightingfires]

Very cool Dmt31. I had often wondered that. I kind of figured the same thing too. When I got put on trt the doc started my on a dosage and then said for the next few months we would take monthly bloods till we got me to where I should be. If it was as simple as take X amount to bring it up every 100points then there really should of been no need as he could of just done the math the first time. It really does show we all metabolize things differently

 

[Blacken]

Very interesting stuff. I would love to know more about what influences this the way our body metabolizes stuff on so many levels fascinates me. It my hidden nerd I guess I love to learn how shit works.

 

[mercury]

I used to do blood test long time ago but no more.

It depends if you do in the morning or in the evening and there is no rule that on certain day after injection the level is highest, the difference can be big.

Actually better gear can show a less potent on the blood test.

It is not really reliable method to see how potent your gear is.

 

[Oregongearhead]

Your doctor should be testing at 48hrs (2 days after last pin) this is stated in the PDR . Call him on it....~Ogh

 

[devildog93]

Another point of contention is the dosages you guys are testing at. Say there is a floor difference(flat rate) of fluctuation, and say it is even 600 like you stated dmt. I think this is accounted for in the 8x - 10x rule that Dr. Scally put forward when talking about the dosages most people are talking about testing for. 750mg of test should come out between 6000 - 7500 if we go by Dr. Scally's experience. You still have the variation you talk about in there. It could range 1500, and i think he has accounted for that.

The problem is when we see something come back at say, 3000, or even lower - 1500. You can't account for that with body differences. If my bloods came back like that with the proper timing on the testing i would throw up the red flag and call bullshit on the gear i was using. It is just too far off the expected value to be anything other than garbage, especially when you know the kind of powder that is floating around out there.

 

[dmt31]

Your doctor should be testing at 48hrs (2 days after last pin) this is stated in the PDR . Call him on it....~Ogh

The way the TRT clinics (at least in my area) work is not like that. You get your shot, you go home, you come back in 7 days, get another shot, etc. Every 6 shots they test your blood before you get your shot for the day. That's just how it works.

I have left that doctor, as I wanted to do in home injections. Today was actually my first day of pinning my TRT at home. My boss isn't looking to blast and cruise like I am with TRT, so he likes going in to the doctor once a week and having the shot given to him. I now just have to go once very 3 months, so I can do my mini blasts and be back on schedule before my next visit.

That all said, I know the peak level is 48 hours after, the TRT clinics here are actually more worried about what you 'valley' level is. They couldn't care less about your peak. They want your valley level to be around 500-600 7 days after pin. So they adjust dosages accordingly.

Not saying it's right or it makes sense, but that just how it is.

 

[dmt31]

Another point of contention is the dosages you guys are testing at. Say there is a floor difference(flat rate) of fluctuation, and say it is even 600 like you stated dmt. I think this is accounted for in the 8x - 10x rule that Dr. Scally put forward when talking about the dosages most people are talking about testing for. 750mg of test should come out between 6000 - 7500 if we go by Dr. Scally's experience. You still have the variation you talk about in there. It could range 1500, and i think he has accounted for that.

The problem is when we see something come back at say, 3000, or even lower - 1500. You can't account for that with body differences. If my bloods came back like that with the proper timing on the testing i would throw up the red flag and call bullshit on the gear i was using. It is just too far off the expected value to be anything other than garbage, especially when you know the kind of powder that is floating around out there.

Yeah I don't disagree, but it's interesting to see it play out in front of me, you know? It's not like I bought some UGL shit and me and my boss are just banging it, unsure of what dosages we're taking or where it came from.

I just thought I'd point it out, as I was sorta jealous of him lol. I couldn't believe his TT was that high still 7 days after his last pin. I have actually switched my protocol to 80mg e3.5d because that down swing was brutal. The entire 6th day and 7th day before I got my injection was hell, I'd rather have a lower peak level but never have that miserably low valley either.

 

[Oregongearhead]

The way the TRT clinics (at least in my area) work is not like that. You get your shot, you go home, you come back in 7 days, get another shot, etc. Every 6 shots they test your blood before you get your shot for the day. That's just how it works.

I have left that doctor, as I wanted to do in home injections. Today was actually my first day of pinning my TRT at home. My boss isn't looking to blast and cruise like I am with TRT, so he likes going in to the doctor once a week and having the shot given to him. I now just have to go once very 3 months, so I can do my mini blasts and be back on schedule before my next visit.

That all said, I know the peak level is 48 hours after, the TRT clinics here are actually more worried about what you 'valley' level is. They couldn't care less about your peak. They want your valley level to be around 500-600 7 days after pin. So they adjust dosages accordingly.

Not saying it's right or it makes sense, but that just how it is.

I see ; I go to a regular doctor and I pin at home ,120mg/wk, 3 or 4 bloodtest a year. Theres differences between TRT clinics and regular doctors , and they all test different . ~Ogh

 

[fightingfires]

I have noticed I am more sluggish on days 5-7 I may have to follow your lead and pin Sun and Wed to level it out a bit. But until the doc settles on what dose to keep me at I will keep his 7 day schedule for now

 

[dmt31]

I see ; I go to a regular doctor and I pin at home ,120mg/wk, 3 or 4 bloodtest a year. Theres differences between TRT clinics and regular doctors , and they all test different . ~Ogh

Yeah I stopped going to the TRT clinic and I am being treated by a Urologist now so I have to start going in once every 3 months...

What type of blasts do you do? To be safe, this cycle I'm running my TRT dose, plus 100mg/ED of Prop. I'm going to run it for 8 weeks so I am sure I am back on my normal schedule by the time I get checked. I don't want anything suspicious to come up in my blood work so I think 5 or so weeks will be plenty of time to get back to normal... I wanted to run something like Test E, but I was nervous that 8 weeks wouldn't be enough, and I was scared to run it for longer than that... What do you suggest?

 

[fightingfires]

Oh I am way to new at this to be giving that advise. I am waiting till my trt is dialed in as the doc has me on monthly blood tests for now

 

[iintensity]

How much older is your boss? Older individuals test higher. You test very low and the opposite holds true for him. Normal people like generally test in the 600-700 range.

 

[Docd187123]

Blood tests measure a concentration like ng/dL. Concentration is a function of mass and volume. So one possible reason for the difference while maintaining the same dose would be the volume of your blood. If your circulatory system has more or less blood than that of someone else the blood test would show a lower or higher concentration.

 

[dmt31]

How much older is your boss? Older individuals test higher. You test very low and the opposite holds true for him. Normal people like generally test in the 600-700 range.

He's 10 years older than me, and had much lower TT when he started TRT. He was in the 100's for TT when he started, I was double his amount.

 

[heady muscle]

I posted this on Mike Strong's thread in reply to Bickell29. I think it fits here as well. I hope you don't mind:
'From the research I am doing on the 10x theory, I have found nothing that supports this claim that 10x the dose should equal serum blood levels. Occam's Razor seems to be in affect here without a solid cogitated formula for our basis.

This study demonstrates some what of what we are looking for:
http://press.endocrine.org/doi/figure/10.1210/jcem.84.10.6078

http://press.endocrine.org/doi/full/10.1210/jc.2004-1184

and yes, this one again too: http://ajpendo.physiology.org/content/281/6/E1172##

I have been corresponding with two of the Doctors in these studies. I directly asked them both if a rule of thumb 5x rule could be applied (I used 5x to see the reaction). One answer "It depends on the population - see again, the comparison our dose-response study for older men. Concentrations and effects can be much higher in older men ." My follow up question was how high, 10x???. Her response "that may too be high, but it is hard to determine because of the all variables involved." I haven't had a chance to follow it up. But I will.'

My correspondence continues and hopefully I will learn more but I am swamp with my REAL job. lol. Feel free to follow up.

I've delved into this and I am only scratching the surface.

 

[iintensity]

Based on my bloods, the bloods of others on trt forums, and from some endo's such as swale and scally I beleive
the 10x does hold its value if bloods are drawn 24-48 hours post inject (assuming only 1 inject per week). If you decide to split injects or pull bloods something like 5 or 7 days later you won't get anything close because testosterone is no longer at its peak. There will always be some outliers but you have to start somewhere.

 

[fightingfires]

With my trt doc he always tells me for bloods to have the tests 3 days after. Since he has me on weekly injections I feel this is to give him an "average of the week" reading. I deliberately do the bloods 5 days after pinning so the reading will be a little low. That way he will slightly over-prescribe and I can save up the extra.

 

[devildog93]

We aren't trying to get an average. We are trying to get peak values. There is a protocol in place and a thread dedicated to it. All this bullshit of talking to the doctors in the studies is pointless, even if true. We have plenty of data and past experience to draw from. I am sure we have plenty of guys with bloodwork from past tests in the 750mg to 1 gram range on pharma gear that make it real simple to read.

The point is we have Dr. Scally's experience and bloodwork to back it up already. The 8x-10x rule does not need to be tested, it has already been proven. All these bullshit tests with much lower than that are due to crap gear or guys testing at the wrong time. I don't see how talking to trt doctors and endocrine specialists who may have never seen a gram of test per week in action adds to this. It is the same ballpark, but not exactly the same level if you know what i mean.

 

[fightingfires]

I think you said it perhaps more accurately than I did @devildog93 The point I was trying to make is that some guys get bloods 48hrs after pinning and some 7 days and then wonder why such a discrepancy exists. I simply meant that what is needed is consistency with when bloods are taken.