Doctors/anyone please... Testosterone and neurotranmitters

Tricyclic antidepressants - which work by increasing serotonin and norepinephrine and by blocking histamine - are useful for treating anxiety. They are limited by weight gain, oversedation, anticholinergic side effects. I avoid them in potentially suicidal patients since they are the most lethal medications I prescribe, when in overdose.

Yes, tricyclic antidepressants have far fewer side effects than modern class antidepressants. And they are fatal in overdose. However, expert psychopharmacologists and a lot of psychiatry literature claims tricyclics are more clinically effective than SSRIs. Tricyclics are more potent and have a more robust antidepressant effect for endogenous (severe) depression. Tofranil, while heavy with side effects, is still the gold standard antidepressant.

Fred
 
Is Akathisia more psychological like anxiety, or more physical like parkinsons?
I think I might of had it before, is loss of apetite and inability to keep food down one of the symptoms?

akathisia is a Neurological condition, it is a movement disorder at the milder end of the spectrum. Ive been formally diagnosed with SSRI induced akathisia at Duke University medical center psychiatry. SSRIs cause it by stimulating the serotonin 2a receptor (5HT2a receptor), which causes depletion of dopamine. It is a Neurological movement disorder, but to the patient, it oftentimes feels more like a psychiatry issue. Akathisia "feels" like anxiety...sometimes severe...can induce OCD thoughts and makes you want to literally get up and move around.

When I had it, I thought something was very wrong with me...it was a scary experience. The only reason I was diagnosed with it was due to the fact one of the people diagnosing me was a very experienced Neuro-psychiatrist...dual trained in Neurology and psychiatry. I was lucky on that.

Poorly trained mental health professionals who are not well versed in medication caused movement disorders, often misdiagnose akathisia as agitation, psychosis, anxiety and bipolar disorder. Its happened more than once.

Akathisia is also a reason why some stop taking SSRIs. I found I experienced akathisia only during the first week or two of starting an SSRI or when increasing the dosage.

The best drug treatment is OTC benadryl...this has mild anti-cholinergic side effects. Benzos are also used.

Fred
 
LT, M. doesn't visit anymore. You can find him at definitivepsychiatry.com There are a few of his patients arond here. He did alot to bring the interaction between neurotransmitters and hormones to the attention of board members. He is writting a text on the area.
 
He is writting a text on the area.

Hi HeadDoc,

Its HIGHLY doubtful his academic text will make any waves. Why? He is a psychiatrist. Nuff said.

If he was an Endocrinologist or a Neuro guy, his material would might be taken more seriously by mainstream medicine. Psychiatry is for NON PHYSICAL problems, ie; psychological problems treated with drugs. The minute a few psychiatrists start trying to treat medical problems, all hell breaks loose and it isnt well received by most other doctors.

This is why when you told me this Mariano guy is a psychiatrist, trying to "integrate" various fields, my eyes rolled. He wont succeed at doing that. Probably the only reason he has been allowed to go this far is the fact is he practices in California...a very liberal and open minded state, open to new things. Anywhere else and he probably would have been reported to his state medical board for operating outside his clinical field of psychiatry.

My understanding is this guy is actually clinically practicing stuff that is not psychiatry territory...and that has not been validated by the FDA.

Im not trying to be mean or sarcastic, Im just trying to explain to you the obstacles this guy faces with his idea of a "new kind of psychiatry" or whatever. I can tell you, it aint gonna swing.

Psychiatry...for NON MEDICAL problems and substance abuse problems. "Its in your head, mental patient. There isnt one thing wrong with you. Have some thorazine." Or "you need to stop smoking that crack Tyrone, lets put you in rehab."

Rest of medicine...for MEDICAL problems. Things that can be seen to the eye on a test, lab study, MRI and have objective meaning to them.

The rest of medicine largely laughs at psychiatry, maybe not to their face, but psychiatry is looked askance at by most members of mainstream medicine.

This guy isnt gonna change anything. If he wanted to be taken seriously, he should have probably gone into Neurology, gotten dual trained in endocrinology and maybe become a Neuroendocrinologist.

Any major changes to psychiatry needs to come from the top down, not from the bottom up. Starting with people like government agencies suc as NIMH and NINDS, state and federal legislators, the APA and reputable academic departments of psychiatry, Neurology and Endocrinology need to be methodically targeted by lobbyists to make any real changes.

I repeat:

psychiatry is for non medical stuff (you're crazy or depressed or addicted to booze/drugs)

rest of medicine is for medical stuff (thyroid, hypogonadism, hypertension, sleep medicine, etc)


Fred
 
Hi HeadDoc,

Its HIGHLY doubtful his academic text will make any waves. Why? He is a psychiatrist. Nuff said.

If he was an Endocrinologist or a Neuro guy, his material would might be taken more seriously by mainstream medicine. Psychiatry is for NON PHYSICAL problems, ie; psychological problems treated with drugs. The minute a few psychiatrists start trying to treat medical problems, all hell breaks loose and it isnt well received by most other doctors.

This is why when you told me this Mariano guy is a psychiatrist, trying to "integrate" various fields, my eyes rolled. He wont succeed at doing that. Probably the only reason he has been allowed to go this far is the fact is he practices in California...a very liberal and open minded state, open to new things. Anywhere else and he probably would have been reported to his state medical board for operating outside his clinical field of psychiatry.

My understanding is this guy is actually clinically practicing stuff that is not psychiatry territory...and that has not been validated by the FDA.

Im not trying to be mean or sarcastic, Im just trying to explain to you the obstacles this guy faces with his idea of a "new kind of psychiatry" or whatever. I can tell you, it aint gonna swing.

Psychiatry...for NON MEDICAL problems and substance abuse problems. "Its in your head, mental patient. There isnt one thing wrong with you. Have some thorazine." Or "you need to stop smoking that crack Tyrone, lets put you in rehab."

Rest of medicine...for MEDICAL problems. Things that can be seen to the eye on a test, lab study, MRI and have objective meaning to them.

The rest of medicine largely laughs at psychiatry, maybe not to their face, but psychiatry is looked askance at by most members of mainstream medicine.

This guy isnt gonna change anything. If he wanted to be taken seriously, he should have probably gone into Neurology, gotten dual trained in endocrinology and maybe become a Neuroendocrinologist.

Any major changes to psychiatry needs to come from the top down, not from the bottom up. Starting with people like government agencies suc as NIMH and NINDS, state and federal legislators, the APA and reputable academic departments of psychiatry, Neurology and Endocrinology need to be methodically targeted by lobbyists to make any real changes.

I repeat:

psychiatry is for non medical stuff (you're crazy or depressed or addicted to booze/drugs)

rest of medicine is for medical stuff (thyroid, hypogonadism, hypertension, sleep medicine, etc)


Fred


Hi Fred,

I just re-read this thread recently. You are aware that Dr. Mariano is a Physician, Psychiatrist, Behavioral Neuroendocrinologist and Immunologist aren't you?
 
I don't believe in such a sharp distinction between mental and physical medicine. Recent research on neuroplasticity as effected by environment is proof alone. The field of neuropsychoendocrinology is not new. The clinical applications are to humans is new. The effects of psychotropic medications are on the balance of neurotransmitters in the CNS. This is physical. Furthermore, there are neurobiological investigations of psychotherapy. The outcomes are in the expected direction.

When it comes to science, it is true that some are softer than others. When we look for more uncontravertible data and understanding, it is probably only mathematics that holds up. Chemistry, physics, biology are still infant sciences comparatively.

So, clinical textbooks do have a short shelf life. I did a recent literature review in the area of clinical neuropsychoendocrinology and there is a vacuum waiting to be filled. In the field of comparative biology, there are many good texts in the non-clinical side of the study.
 
Re: The Mind

I don't believe in such a sharp distinction between mental and physical medicine. Recent research on neuroplasticity as effected by environment is proof alone. The field of neuropsychoendocrinology is not new. The clinical applications are to humans is new. The effects of psychotropic medications are on the balance of neurotransmitters in the CNS. This is physical. Furthermore, there are neurobiological investigations of psychotherapy. The outcomes are in the expected direction.

When it comes to science, it is true that some are softer than others. When we look for more uncontravertible data and understanding, it is probably only mathematics that holds up. Chemistry, physics, biology are still infant sciences comparatively.

So, clinical textbooks do have a short shelf life. I did a recent literature review in the area of clinical neuropsychoendocrinology and there is a vacuum waiting to be filled. In the field of comparative biology, there are many good texts in the non-clinical side of the study.

The most difficult problem I face is not with my patients. The vast majority of my private patients seek treatment with me because they can't find a solution with conventional medicine. The most difficult problem is in getting other physicians to understand what I do - both psychiatrists and other specialists. What I do transcends specialties. If anything, it is basic, old-fashion, medicine applied to the field of mental health.

If you took an internist and asked him/her to start from scratch and determine what a mental illness is, then you may reach where I am. An internist generally assumes an illness has a physiologic basis. After all, we are physicians - i.e. we study physiology and its pathology. Thus, an internist, would then define "the mind", then start measuring the mind to determine what is the pathophysiologic basis for a mental illness. Then at arriving at a pathology, the internist can then definitively determine the appropriate treatment.

If you take a totally health person and asked and answered the question "What physiologic changes do I have to do to create a mental illness in this person?", then you may reach where I am.

The biggest problem in psychiatry - and in the mental health field in general - is that there is NO definition of the mind. It is an entity which is assumed to exist, that we already intrinsically know. But, without a definition, one cannot actually correctly measure it and monitor it for pathology.

As a treat for you, I will give you my definition. And it works spectacularly. Once you understand its implications, you know what mental illness is and how it relates to physical illness, and vice versa.

First: We all should realize that the mind has several functions: To perceive sensory information, to store information, to process information, to determine emotions, to determine thought, to determine behavior, to control our body systems, etc.

Second: We generally think of the mind as analogous to a computer. The mind is somehow a circuit, which uses numerous molecular signals - just as a computer is an electrical circuit which uses electrons as signals. Scientists interested in artificial intelligence are modeling the mind using computers and electrical circuits.

Third: The mind, we can generally agree, is the physical correlate of behavior. It is "the organ" we would point to as mental health specialists, just as a cardiologist would point to the heart.

Thus my definition of the mind:

The mind is the sum of all the signaling systems in the body which determines thought, perception, storage of information, emotions, behavior, and control of the body systems in response to, and in adaptation to the environment. The mind is a fluid circuit, analogous to a computer's electrical circuit, which uses thousands of molecular signals (some of which we call neurotransmitters, hormones, or cytokines), analogous to the electrons used in an electrical circuit.

---

The mind developed from the early intercellular communication system which allowed early multicellular organisms to coordinate the activities of its cells in order to survive and adapt to the environment. A human is a highly complex multicellular organism, with a more highly complex mind, necessary for survival and adaptation to the environment.

---

Collorary One:

Question: Is there any cell in the body which is not part of the mind?
Answer: No. Every cell participates in intercellular signaling.

--

Collorary Two:

By this definition of the mind, inevitably one concludes that:

The mind IS the body.

The body IS the mind.

There is NO separation between mind and body.

The mind IS the body.

[This is my most important spectacular and useful finding.]

--

Collorary Three:

Mental Illness is a physical illness.

---

This, for example, explains why people with a major mental illness die 25 years younger than people who without (this is true even when removing suicides and accidents as factors). This is true even if they receive physical health care.

In the last few decades, mental illness has shortened a persons life more than any other physical illness.

This explains why people with major mental illnesses are much sicker than those without. They have often numerous physical problems.

This also supports a rule of thumb in consultation-liaison psychiatry - otherwise known as psychosomatic medicine: If a person's medical chart is over 1-inch thick, then that person has a major mental illness.

--

Where do psychological issues fit in?

Psychological issues and problems may be considered analogous to software and software problems in computer systems.

They include the stored information (memories, perceptions, social rules, etc.) and stored behavioral programs (e.g. mindfulness skills, mood regulation skills, relationship skills, etc.) we develop to solve problems.

They directly affect the hardware - the mind.

Vice versa: problems in the mind can influence the development of behavioral programs.

For example, low blood sugar can directly lead to the drive of hunger to eat carbohydrates. We then determine what form of carbohydrates we will eat and when - .e.g candy, breads, pasta, fruits, or alcohol.

For example, the loss of sodium from a mineralocorticoid signaling deficiency, may lead to the drive to favor salty foods or adding salt to food.

---

When you examine behavior, you have to tease apart the hardware and software issues to help understand the underlying factors.

For example, paranoid delusions are not pure psychotic symptoms.

A paranoid delusion includes:
1. A mood - fear - meaning an uncontrolled excess in norepinephrine signaling.
2. An illogic - the development of a false belief - indicating psychosis - probably due to a structural miswiring in the nervous system.
3. Psychological components - the stored belief the someone is having malevolent actions toward oneself; behavioral solutions including staring out the window frequently or scanning the surrounding environment for threats or buying weapons to protect oneself, etc.

Thus, having paranoid delusions indicates the simultaneous presence of a mood disorder with fear as its primary emotion, along with psychosis (which I believe indicates the existence of a structural problem in the nervous system - i.e. miswiring), and behavioral solutions.

The miswiring may be due to the loss of cells or excess of cells in abnormal development of the nervous system. Evidence of this includes the enlarged ventricles in people with schizophrenia, indicating the excess loss of certain brain cells.

---

Collorary Four:

To be mentally healthy, one has to be physically healthy.

To be mentally well, one has to be physically well.

And vice versa.

---

The problem is:

Physical medicine does not do a good job in treating physical illness.

For example, in the treatment of diabetes type 2, one has to get rid of insulin resistance.

I don't see this happening. Too often, I see diabetes poorly controlled.

One problem is that diabetes is defined arbitrarily as a fasting blood sugar greater than 125.

Thus, a blood sugar between 100-125 is considered acceptable because it is not diabetes.

Yet, one still has insulin resistance (assuming optimal gluconeogenesis), when the blood sugar is between 100-125.

AND, one still has a high risk of getting heart disease and other consequences of diabetes when the blood sugar is between 100-125.

Such a blood sugar implies that insulin production is excessive to control the blood sugar in the face of insulin resistance.

Insulin is an inflammatory signal, triggers fat storage, etc. It contributes to the problems of diabetes - e.g. heart attack, stroke, Alzheimer's disease, depression and other mood disorders, etc.

For optimum mental health, blood sugar has to be much more tightly controlled than is done by primary care and endocrinology.

I, myself, prefer the range between 93-100.

Thus to optimally treat mental illness, you have to do better than what is currently done by physical health doctors. To not do so means your patients die young - 25 years younger than they should have.

Mental illness is a physical illness.

There is NO distinction between mental and physical illness (excepting subsets such as trauma and infection). The mind-body separation is an arbitrary construct.

This is why I prefer, when possible, to take over the endocrine treatment of my patients. The endocrine system IS part of the mind and is involved in all of the mood disorders, most psychotic disorders (particularly those with a mood component), most of ADHD, and other mental illnesses. I don't see endocrinologists doing a good job on their end in treating mental illness. They may not even see how it relates. Yet the earliest and smallest changes to endocrine function leads primarily to behavioral changes.

The early psychiatrists of the 1930s and 1940s recognized that the endocrine system has a strong role on mental function.

In a way, I have come full circle, to the roots of psychiatry. After all, the early psychiatrists were not psychiatrists. They were neurologists (e.g. Freud) and other specialists.

Where psychiatrists got side-tracked is in creating DSM-IV - an abomination which defined the major mental illnesses as having no physiologic basis. Yet drugs change physiology. And why all the ongoing research showing the physical aspects of mental illness. Thus DSM-IV is seriously flawed. It doesn't even have a definition of the mind - its primary flaw.

---

In closing:

This definition of the mind works very well for me.

I can now define mental illness by its pathophysiology (i.e. its causes) and treat the pathophysiology rather than engage in trial and error treatments.

For example, why would I give a person a dual action medication for depression, which raises both serotonin and norepinephrine, when the person already has excessive norepinephrine signaling? That wouldn't be my first choice. I would first just target the low serotonin levels and use medications to lower norepinephrine signaling. The usual psychiatrist wouldn't even measure the neurotransmitters, and thus does trial and error - with the primary criteria being avoidance of side effects.

It takes a lot of hard work to get there, however. One has to study psychology, psychiatry (conventional), neurology, endocrinology, immunology, nutrition, general medicine, among other subjects. Having a computer science background also helps. One also has to deconstruct lab tests and determine what they actually mean in relationship to behavior. It is a nearly complete re-examination of, questioning of, and rebuilding of one's understanding of medicine. It makes it a hell of a lot of fun as well when one can see what others can't, and when one can have a much better treatment for mental illness than before.

One last example before I go: I found that men, women, and children all can get hot flashes. But only premenstrual and menopausal women are generally known for it. Why? No one asked the men and children. No one asked what causes hot flashes. It is not an estrogen problem primarily. Estrogen does not always control hot flashes. It may also worsen it in men. Why? Unless you can tie the signaling systems all together (meaning, have an understanding what the mind is), you won't know why.

---

And one last note:

Even if others don't understand, the most important thing is that the patient gets healthier.

Cheers. I hope this piques your mind (pun intended).

Now I have to get back to work and writing the book.
 
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Hi Doc,
I have been on TRT for 2 years now. Is there a correlation between TRT and how you perceive pain. I know the SSRIs and SNRIs can affect this. The reason I ask is because I had a cervical laminectomy performed on me 15 years ago and have suffered from Chronic pain. It seems my pain has increased since starting TRT. Any help or info is greatly appreciated.
Thanks
 
Serotonin imbalances can cause increase sensitivity to pain. Excessive of inflammation from over load of omega 6 in the diet can also be a contributing factor as well as nutrient imbalances.
 
Serotonin imbalances can cause increase sensitivity to pain. Excessive of inflammation from over load of omega 6 in the diet can also be a contributing factor as well as nutrient imbalances.

Thank you Hardasnails,
My CRP (marker of inflammation in the body) and CPK were remarkably high on my blood test. Also..would you mind giving me some examples of foods high in the Omega 6s? I understand how nutrient/electrolyte imbalances affect pain. Again...thank you for your response.
 
I am a male and am 77 years old. Since about a month I have been applying daily a Testosterone Transdermal Patch 2.5mg . My problem was that I was very low on instant energy. This was only a trial but I do like to share my experience of these patches. It has changed the workings of my brain. I had very bad memory recall and everything was quite woolly in my mind. As the result of these patches it has increased the clarity in my mind, I see better and I hear better. But most of all I had a problem for twenty years with the feeling that my bottom was going to drop out which resulted in anal incontinence. This has now disappeared for 80%. Therefore with keeping in mind the increased clarity of sight and hearing I cam to the conclusion that I must have an increased amount of neurotransmitters. Also as all muscles are regulated in the brain it has also improved the muscle performance of my anal muscles. Doctors and specialists poked their fingers up my bottom to find out my incontinence problem, but did not make the connection that I must have had a deficiency of neurotransmitters that could be the cause of my problem. But with the disappearance of the problem I can only put this down to the use of the testosterone patches and the increased neurotransmitters. By the way, my energy levels have also been increased. I am now continuing the use of the patches and possibly increase the dosage. Life is good....
 
There are androgen receptors all over the body, I don't know why you think neurotransmitters need to be involved, but I'm happy that it is helping you.
 
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