DONATE AND GET INVOLVED IN OUR COMMUNITY

[weighted chinup]

Millard,
In much due respect, If this concept was pushed or advertised more broadly through MESO, you may have not needed to bring in EVO (evil) to supplement funding for the site from the outside. And now, I cannot say I would be willing to donate as long as EVO is involved with this forum.

I say this very calm and respectively to you. I understand balancing the books, but bringing in an influence which is the antithesis of what this forum stands for makes me shake my head. I have tons of respect for you, this forum, what it stands for and the people who frequent this forum.

Thank you,
Heady

A lot of you guys really need to familiarize yourself with Meso's policy / criteria for sponsors and advertisers.

Potential sponsors must support MESO's commitment to free speech, steroid education and harm reduction. This means sponsors will have no influence over member speech; admin and mods will not protect sponsors from negative feedback. Additionally, admin and mods do not endorse any sponsor. Also, MESO will not link to any website domain that has a point of sale for any type of controlled substance (anabolic steroid).​

Can you find anything in that policy that would suggest potential sponsors will have any influence on the board like you seem to be implying?

The Evo thread made it clear that a lot of guys really don't know what the sponsor / advertiser designation on this board means. There were guys theorizing that Meso is going to get amalgamated with Evo, which really surprised me.

I'm not trying to give you shit here, I'm only mentioning this and replying to your post because I know many share the same sentiment you do.

The problem is it's misguided to assume that this sponsor is 'involved' with Meso in a capacity beyond the other sponsors / advertisers that have been here. I think peoples disdain for this one particular sponsor is clouding their judgement on this matter.

You made it fairly clear in your post that it was wrong for Millard to accept money from the 'evil' sponsor. Administration is impartial when it comes to these matters, do you really want Millard to decide what is 'evil' and what is 'good'? Taking a position / stance like that on a sponsor is no longer being impartial. It's the same reason why the GETM banner wasn't pulled down after what happened in the summer.

Losing that impartiality would do more harm than good, but many others simply can't agree with this. That's fine if you don't like it, but there is no arguing that it's the right position to take if editorial integrity is a concern. For a board like Meso, maintaining that integrity is extremely important.

The only thing the 'sponsor/advertiser' designation means is that the sponsor supports Meso's goals - free speech, steroid education, harm reduction. That's it.

 

[heady muscle]

A lot of you guys really need to familiarize yourself with Meso's policy / criteria for sponsors and advertisers.

Potential sponsors must support MESO's commitment to free speech, steroid education and harm reduction. This means sponsors will have no influence over member speech; admin and mods will not protect sponsors from negative feedback. Additionally, admin and mods do not endorse any sponsor. Also, MESO will not link to any website domain that has a point of sale for any type of controlled substance (anabolic steroid).​

Can you find anything in that policy that would suggest potential sponsors will have any influence on the board like you seem to be implying?

The Evo thread made it clear that a lot of guys really don't know what the sponsor / advertiser designation on this board means. There were guys theorizing that Meso is going to get amalgamated with Evo, which really surprised me.

I'm not trying to give you shit here, I'm only mentioning this and replying to your post because I know many share the same sentiment you do.

The problem is it's misguided to assume that this sponsor is 'involved' with Meso in a capacity beyond the other sponsors / advertisers that have been here. I think peoples disdain for this one particular sponsor is clouding their judgement on this matter.

You made it fairly clear in your post that it was wrong for Millard to accept money from the 'evil' sponsor. Administration is impartial when it comes to these matters, do you really want Millard to decide what is 'evil' and what is 'good'? Taking a position / stance like that on a sponsor is no longer being impartial. It's the same reason why the GETM banner wasn't pulled down after what happened in the summer.

Losing that impartiality would do more harm than good, but many others simply can't agree with this. That's fine if you don't like it, but there is no arguing that it's the right position to take if editorial integrity is a concern. For a board like Meso, maintaining that integrity is extremely important.

The only thing the 'sponsor/advertiser' designation means is that the sponsor supports Meso's goals - free speech, steroid education, harm reduction. That's it.

I appreciate you posting this and I agree. Too an extent. Yes, this is an open forum without many restrictions. Free Speech and all. But yes, I do seeing EVO having an influence on this board which is not a positive one. Maybe not in the way of a sponsor has over at IMF, ASF or EVO, but yes they will have an influence. And not like a ugl does here either. With an ugl, you can test their product to know they are bunk or not. It's not so easy discrediting rhetoric and propaganda from bargain basement dwellers.

And I never said it "was wrong" for Millard to do this. I merely stated my opinion, which he asked for on Evo's introductory thread. I understand and have a first hand knowledge about running a business. It's not easy.

And I know Millard has the people of our community in mind first. That is why Scally is here and education from Bill Roberts...etc. And that is why I and maybe you and many others have come here. He has my total respect. Millard and I both have been in the game a very long time and he has done way more than myself to to make it safer and more open for the general public to learn about AAS than almost anyone else.

Most of us have clear choices when it comes to where we spend our money or for some others, where we make our money. Integrity to me is following the principles you bestow for yourself without compromise that has the least negative affect on others around you.

Animal...your taking a page out of hammer's book with the T&A is insulting. Yes, we're meatheads but we're meatheads that have seen most everything that can be used to deflect attention from the truth.
You are here to FIRST AND FOREMOST push the shit products your staff/mods have in their signatures.....to push shit products your mods/staff start threads about praise and sell. To lie and get members to fork out cash to buy.
Your staff and reps think its cute and do as the Pro's do who are sponsored by supplement companies. They claim they look like they do and would not be winning if not for the products the companies sell.
The pro uses the money from the sponsors to buy the drugs and food and to be able to work less and work out and sleep more. He does not win by using the products of the company that sponsors him.
The board you are from was birthed from the people who were groomed by the oldest scam board of them all....EF(elitefitness). EF has been trying to maximize profits from the very beginning. I remember when EF first came up with the idea to charge for member ship. Most of the staff at evo was not. Perhaps none of you were there? I remember back then there weren't many boards and the core group of guys could be found at most of them.
Back then a newish Community member and EF member mugsy spoke out about the paying membership being not an idea that had members best interests at heart but rather it had the financial well being of a few at heart. He posted that he wouldn't be paying as it would set a precedent he wanted nothing to do with.
The posts in response ranged from those saying mugzy was onto something and his ideas should be discussed to the posts from those on board who would be reaping the rewards of taking cash when it started to trickle down the ranks that told mugzy to not let the door hit him on the ass on the way out.
Mugzy has changed some(we all have) but I believe he is still on the members side.
EF has turned out bloodsucking vermin that are only about making money off the backs of the community and doing so by lying and doing so with layers of lies and a business model based on censorship and denying to the end that they are anything but pillars of the community.
The products that evo sells are useless. Your staff has threads claiming the products are better than the drugs that they are named to sound and look similar to. Another of the archaic but successful tactics used by snake oil salesmen over the years. A supp will be marketed as oxandrovar, a blend of anavar and oxandrolone, to hopefully lend it some legitimacy to sound like the real drug....then put a mass monster in picture holding the product up with him saying he owes his muscle to the one amazing product. Also, if you want to look like him you better get that wallet out and buy a 3 month "cycle" of it. Not to worry, there is a money back guarantee if you don't blow up. Lol.
We had a skinny little youngster here not long ago....perfect for you guys. He posted a pic of a bottle he paid $60 for. Asked us if we ever heard of the brand of d-bol he had. He felt like it might not be dosed properly. He missed the fine print....it said "Dietary Supplement". It was spelled to resemble the branded drug...sadly, the only thing blowing up was the piece of shit who sold him the crap.
You guys are the dregs of the Community. Bottom feeders. The shit you sell keeps you safe from LE. To the informed Community you are looked at with contempt. What's funny is you are like drug dealers in the sense that you DON'T WANT AAS LEGALIZED. You prey on those without a connection to real drugs on the Black Market.
Drug dealers don't want the drugs they sell legalized. They won't be needed. You, too, will be out of business. You are the same as the phony street dealers that sell dry wall as crack to the unsuspecting addict.
You sell shit in a bag claiming it is the same if not better then the illegal drug it sounds like. You and the other staff swear its true. The dry wall crack dealer sometimes is handed street justice by way of a bullet to the head.
You all hide behind silly names online..Gambino..a gangster? Please. You're a silly little man that has ripped a lot of people off. You all have. You all think of new ways to steal.
I could go on and on. I'd rather not blow my wad. I'll be seeing you all around the boards.

The things Ben mentions here is why most people are against Evo. We work hard here as a community to keep this type of shit out, this MAY add to the load. That is my point. I don't want people coming here and being turned off by these types of "sponsors." We (MESO) are different and like and dislike for a reason.

It could have been handled better. But hopefully everything is as transparent as possible now.



I presume that EVO is expecting its sponsorship will help EVO grow. But we are grateful for EVO's support because it will help MESO do bigger and better things.

It is no secret that MESO wants to have the maximum impact on the AAS community. So growing and extending its reach is an important step towards this goal.

I do know exactly what you are saying about getting lost in bigger forums. As MESO grows, it will be a challenge to maintain the feeling of a small, close-knit community. The more feedback we receive along the way, the better job we can do. Make sure to stay in touch with me on this issue.

I like Millard's vision here. My only problem with it is, yes it will help MESO's message spread, but it will also help EVO's equally. Hopefully MESO's message remains the stronger of the two and the garbage ends up were it belongs, composting at the bottom of the pile. I will trust in Millard's vision and work harder with the rest of community to up hold OUR standards, while stating my opinion even though it may be taken as defeatist or as a Pollyanna.

 

[weighted chinup]

But yes, I do seeing EVO having an influence on this board which is not a positive one. Maybe not in the way of a sponsor has over at IMF, ASF or EVO, but yes they will have an influence. And not like a ugl does here either. With an ugl, you can test their product to know they are bunk or not. It's not so easy discrediting rhetoric and propaganda from bargain basement dwellers.

This is an interesting perspective, and I am glad you mentioned it.

Any 'influence' that Evo and associates might have to Meso could still be spread even if they weren't a paying sponsor. I suspect that they could spread their 'information' even if they weren't paying, they might be less motivated to do so, but I don't think sponsors have a second set of rules on what they can or cannot post.

As far as discrediting rhetoric and propaganda goes compared to discrediting UGL's, I actually don't think one is particularly harder to do than the other. At least on Meso. Broscience, garbage information, and harmful information gets torn apart and countered with evidence so fast on this board its amazing.

I don't think anybody spreading harmful information and propaganda will ever even come close to gaining a foothold on Meso. I would say Meso is more efficient at discrediting harmful information and propaganda than we are at exposing garbage labs, and we are pretty good at that.

I am confident in saying that the people spreading garbage information will NEVER gain a foothold of this board, at least not in this lifetime.

And I never said it "was wrong" for Millard to do this. I merely stated my opinion, which he asked for on Evo's introductory thread. I understand and have a first hand knowledge about running a business. It's not easy.

In that case I apologize for making it sound like you were implying this. That is how I interpreted your statement but I understand you were just sharing your thoughts on this particular sponsor - which you absolutely should do.

Most of us have clear choices when it comes to where we spend our money or for some others, where we make our money. Integrity to me is following the principles you bestow for yourself without compromise that has the least negative affect on others around you.

This is the popular argument I see presented when it comes to this issue. I really do believe the current policy is the most honest and credible way to approach advertisers.

Advertisers / Sponsors isn't the perfect way to fund a site like Meso, the model has some inherent flaws with it when it comes to editorial integrity, but I believe the stance of impartiality is the most honest way to approach it.

I used the GETM example earlier - a lot of folks were surprised that the banner remained even after they screwed a lot of people over, but can you imagine the negative impact there would have been if administration took the banner / sponsor down because of what went down in the Underground? They would essentially be taking an official stance / position on a lab. That could do some irreparable harm to the boards credibility / integrity, wouldn't you agree?

Administration has to remain impartial.

The things Ben mentions here is why most people are against Evo. We work hard here as a community to keep this type of shit out, this MAY add to the load. That is my point. I don't want people coming here and being turned off by these types of "sponsors." We (MESO) are different and like and dislike for a reason.

I understand the disdain for Evo. I never made mention of my personal opinions on Evo and crew in my earlier post because I didn't feel it was particularly relevant, but I think it goes without saying that they are not my kind of people.

Like I said earlier - Meso shuts down bullshit and harmful information with ridiculous efficiency. I wouldn't lose any sleep over the extra load. I don't think its any more off-putting than any of the other advertisers that have banners up. Fact is, there aren't a whole lot of 'bring home to your parents' type of sponsors that are interested in steroid harm reduction and education.

 

[BIGMESC]

@weighted chinup and @heady muscle
This discussion is one of the reasons MESO-RX is by far the best forum.
That members can intelligently discuss these issues with valid and logical points without fear is very refreshing.
Thank you both for your contributions to the board in this thread and others.

 

[Millard]

It's strange I just found this thread now.

Millard,
In much due respect, If this concept was pushed or advertised more broadly through MESO, you may have not needed to bring in EVO (evil) to supplement funding for the site from the outside. And now, I cannot say I would be willing to donate as long as EVO is involved with this forum.

I say this very calm and respectively to you. I understand balancing the books, but bringing in an influence which is the antithesis of what this forum stands for makes me shake my head. I have tons of respect for you, this forum, what it stands for and the people who frequent this forum.

Thank you,
Heady

I appreciate the spirit in which your criticism is intended. Constructive criticism is always welcome and it is clear to me that your intentions are to help improve the website.

I don't think the donations approach would work for MESO. For this reason, MESO isn't pushing the premium memberships in this manner but as a value-added service.

Nonetheless, I recognize that many strong supporters of MESO see this a way to financially contribute to the site and don't really care about the premium membership. MESO thanks them; their support is greatly appreciated. However, I don't want anyone to think that supporting the website in this manner will lead to the removal of all banners and an end to the advertiser-supported model.

As far as excluding potential advertisers based on the quality of their products/services, it is a dangerous slide towards endorsing advertisers it does accept. If MESO rejects some potential advertisers because they are "evil", what does that say about those that MESO accepts? They are "good to go"?

MESO doesn't play that game. While it appreciates the support of its sponsors, it does not endorse them.

 

[Millard]

Yes, this is an open forum without many restrictions. Free Speech and all. But yes, I do seeing EVO having an influence on this board which is not a positive one. Maybe not in the way of a sponsor has over at IMF, ASF or EVO, but yes they will have an influence. And not like a ugl does here either. With an ugl, you can test their product to know they are bunk or not. It's not so easy discrediting rhetoric and propaganda from bargain basement dwellers.

My only problem with it is, yes it will help MESO's message spread, but it will also help EVO's equally. Hopefully MESO's message remains the stronger of the two and the garbage ends up were it belongs, composting at the bottom of the pile. I will trust in Millard's vision and work harder with the rest of community to up hold OUR standards, while stating my opinion even though it may be taken as defeatist or as a Pollyanna.

MESO is a marketplace of ideas. This doesn't mean all ideas are created equally. But it does mean all ideas can be presented for scrutiny. The strongest message takes hold. Deception, rhetoric and propaganda are exposed.

With MESO's lack of censorship and celebration of free speech, the forum is highly resistant to commercial influences. Thinly veiled marketing attempts are quickly exposed. The manner in which they are exposed is open for everyone to see. The fact that this occurs is a great way to educate/inform others of these tactics that often take place on other forums.

To specifically address your complaint, there is nothing to prevent a non-sponsor from doing the exact same thing as long as they comply with the rules of the forum. Rejecting advertising dollars from a sponsor who does this would not change anything.

I think what you have seen is proof, for better or worse, that sponsorship dollars don't buy protection from member feedback/criticism.

(This is obviously better for members who value free speech but worse for MESO's attempts to attract potential advertisers. If anything, I would hope most members would applaud this position. )

 

[Millard]

@weighted chinup what can I say? Sometimes I think you have better insight into the reasons MESO does what it does than I do. Thank you

 

[heady muscle]

However, I don't want anyone to think that supporting the website in this manner will lead to the removal of all banners and an end to the advertiser-supported model.
.

Millard,

I do understand the balance that has to be created by you to financially make MESO a go and balance it's integrity against it. Even prior to Weightedchinup's post. I think there would have been less reaction if MESO put up a banner for EVO, then 4 or 5 of their reps presenting themselves in the fashion they did. Advertising banners are one thing, but having interactive representation is another. For me, the banners are nothing different than most any other commercial sites. They are not my focus for coming here. The content of it's members is why I/we come here. If you put on the Myopic Glasses, you can get the wheat from the chaff. With sponsored members, it's much different, imho.

It's same reason I do not own a television (well, one reason); I don't want an electronic salesman in my house. Especially if I am paying for cable/satellite. My point being, they create distractions (imho) from what we are trying to do here, which in my mind is creating a place that is educational first, a place for members to speak of their experience with specific drugs, relationships, nutrition, workouts, etc. Also, testing the Quality of Product that is available to all of us that decide to go down this path. Testing of product is what brought me here in the first place.

As far as excluding potential advertisers based on the quality of their products/services, it is a dangerous slide towards endorsing advertisers it does accept. If MESO rejects some potential advertisers because they are "evil", what does that say about those that MESO accepts? They are "good to go"?

MESO doesn't play that game. While it appreciates the support of its sponsors, it does not endorse them.

I understand this statement but find it silly at the same time. There is no reason to be crass, lol. I get it. Maybe evil was too emotionally strong wording. lol.

I don't get emotional about a lot. I am pretty grounded and enjoy most things easily. I am very fortunate to have that type of constitution. I do think having board interactive sponsors here is a distraction to MESO members because of their mentality is antithesis of the goals that I believe are yours, MESO's and the majority of members here. But we can deal with it. I appreciate what you do for MESO and it's members. I have a deep respect for you, because of this place.

Oh yeah, I will be doing the year membership.

 

[Millard]

Millard,

I do understand the balance that has to be created by you to financially make MESO a go and balance it's integrity against it. Even prior to Weightedchinup's post. I think there would have been less reaction if MESO put up a banner for EVO, then 4 or 5 of their reps presenting themselves in the fashion they did. Advertising banners are one thing, but having interactive representation is another. For me, the banners are nothing different than most any other commercial sites. They are not my focus for coming here. The content of it's members is why I/we come here. If you put on the Myopic Glasses, you can get the wheat from the chaff. With sponsored members, it's much different, imho.

It's same reason I do not own a television (well, one reason); I don't want an electronic salesman in my house. Especially if I am paying for cable/satellite. My point being, they create distractions (imho) from what we are trying to do here, which in my mind is creating a place that is educational first, a place for members to speak of their experience with specific drugs, relationships, nutrition, workouts, etc. Also, testing the Quality of Product that is available to all of us that decide to go down this path. Testing of product is what brought me here in the first place.





I understand this statement but find it silly at the same time. There is no reason to be crass, lol. I get it. Maybe evil was too emotionally strong wording. lol.

I don't get emotional about a lot. I am pretty grounded and enjoy most things easily. I am very fortunate to have that type of constitution. I do think having board interactive sponsors here is a distraction to MESO members because of their mentality is antithesis of the goals that I believe are yours, MESO's and the majority of members here. But we can deal with it. I appreciate what you do for MESO and it's members. I have a deep respect for you, because of this place.

Oh yeah, I will be doing the year membership.

I feel similarly in many ways. (BTW, I have not had cable or network television in my house for over 5 years

The MESO forum wasn't established as a sales platform. People who are actively trying to sell things to members are usually not very welcome.

Given one of the big topics of discussion is the underground AAS marketplace, I believe commercially-motivated participants can have a useful role in the forum discussion. These vendors may be privy to information not available to others; they may have specialized knowledge of the industry; etc. However, they are well-advised to leave their salesperson hat at home.

They should limit their efforts to providing relevant information as requested or in response to member inquiries. And they should be welcome only to the extent that they comply.

Unfortunately, most vendors don't know how to do this. The salesperson hat is the only one they own.