@Dr. Scally HCG Therapy

[Soochers88]

Dr. Scally,

I am a 23 yr old male, currently on HCG therapy for Low T. My current regimen is 500 IU HCG every other day (roughly 2000 IU/ week). I have read that long term use of HCG at dosages of 5000 IU + can cause permanent damage to the testicles and pituitary gland. Have you ever heard of this occurring with my dosage? I have been on this regimen for about 3 months and I have noticed some big improvements as far as sex drive, erection strength, muscle mass, and overall well being. Should I be cycling on and off of HCG? If so how long should my cycles be? I am planning on staying on HCG indefinitely...do you have any thoughts on this?

I have noticed that over the past month I have had sensitive/puffy nipples with some hard lumps underneath the skin...I am sure that this has to do with raised Estradiol levels because of the HCG, I am currently taking zinc and DIM to try and fix this problem...but I might need something stronger like Arimidex.

I had a blood test performed about 1.5 months ago and my Total Testosterone increased from sub 400 ng/dl to 850 ng/dl, but my estradiol increased from 10 ng/dl to 65. I had another blood test done last week and I am still waiting on the results, I will post once I receive them.

 

[Michael Scally MD]

What are the baseline labs for the TRT?

hCG monotherapy as TRT is CRAP!

 

[Soochers88]

Dr. Scally,

First of all I would like to thank you for your time and input.

I don't have the labs on me at the moment, but I can tell you roughly that the baseline total Testosterone was around 380 ng/dl (listed range: 300-1100 ng/dl). My Estradiol was roughly 26 ng/dl (range: 10-45 ng/dl). I will check these numbers when I get home and take a look at the paperwork.

Can you explain why you think HCG alone is insufficient? My T level has more than doubled to 850 ng/dl, but my Estradiol has tripled as well (65 ng/dl). My main concern is damage to the testicles/pituitary gland from long term use at my dosage.

 

[railrider]

Dude get on some aromasin. This is my 2nd run at HCG/AI therapy and so far Im loving it. I get my 4month lab results on 3-3-12 and will post them for ya. My E2 rises quickly on hcg alone but 12.5mg aromasin daily keeps it below 30 consistantly. You may also be able to lower your hcg dose and achieve the same test levels.

 

[Soochers88]

Cool man, thanks for the reply. How long was your first run and why did you discontinue use? I am starting to decrease my dosage to 400 IU every other day to see if that makes a difference. I'll post my results as well, probably some time this week...still waiting on the labs.

 

[Michael Scally MD]

I am a 23 yr old male, currently on HCG therapy for Low T. My current regimen is 500 IU HCG every other day (roughly 2000 IU/ week). I have read that long term use of HCG at dosages of 5000 IU + can cause permanent damage to the testicles and pituitary gland. Have you ever heard of this occurring with my dosage? I have been on this regimen for about 3 months and I have noticed some big improvements as far as sex drive, erection strength, muscle mass, and overall well being. Should I be cycling on and off of HCG? If so how long should my cycles be? I am planning on staying on HCG indefinitely...do you have any thoughts on this?

I have noticed that over the past month I have had sensitive/puffy nipples with some hard lumps underneath the skin...I am sure that this has to do with raised Estradiol levels because of the HCG, I am currently taking zinc and DIM to try and fix this problem...but I might need something stronger like Arimidex.

I had a blood test performed about 1.5 months ago and my Total Testosterone increased from sub 400 ng/dl to 850 ng/dl, but my estradiol increased from 10 ng/dl to 65. I had another blood test done last week and I am still waiting on the results, I will post once I receive them.

ADVERSE REACTIONS - Headache, irritability, restlessness, depression, fatigue, edema, precocious puberty, gynecomastia and pain at the site of injection.

CHORIONIC GONADOTROPIN (CHORIOGONADOTROPIN ALFA) KIT [APP PHARMACEUTICALS, LLC]

It is a well-known and well-described fact that hCG raises E2. E2 is used by some as an indication for hCG effect. Were you not told this. Now you are chasing your tail with the AI!

It is hard, impossible, to believe anyone would be on hCG monotherapy except for fertility.

hCG will also cause HPTA suppression. If used long-term, Welcome to AIH.

 

[Soochers88]

Dr. Scally,

Thanks for your input. I have been searching for any studies or documentation on HCG "long term" causing damage/suppression to the HPT axis, but I can't seem to find anything. Can you post any documentation you might have? Dr. Eugene Shippen has done a lot of work with HCG monotherapy and from his documentation it appears to work, but the longest study I could find was only for 1 year.

What would you recommend for me as far as TRT is concerned? I have tried to get my doctors to prescribe Testosterone, but they all say I am either 1). too young or 2). my testosterone levels are not low enough. Even though my levels were within the normal range, I had a lot of the symptoms of low T.

 

[Michael Scally MD]

Who is prescribing this therapy?

Do you care to point to any peer-reviewed study by Shippen on this form of therapy, actually anything to do with TRT. As far as I know, Shippen has NEVER published ANYTHING (NADA, NONE, ZIP, SQUAT).

 

[railrider]

Cool man, thanks for the reply. How long was your first run and why did you discontinue use? I am starting to decrease my dosage to 400 IU every other day to see if that makes a difference. I'll post my results as well, probably some time this week...still waiting on the labs.

My first run came after trying TRT with Test,AI,HCG for 2 years I tried this combo at different doses and different timing and had no luck. The best way I can put how I felt was Hungover/toxic overload. Obviously in that 2yrs I was shut down and I felt like crap on HCG alone do to it. So the Endo put me back on low dose Axiron gel with the ai and 500ius hcg daily. 30 days later blood work reults were good so we lowered the gel, 30 days later blood work and levels held so we droped the gel, the next resluts coming up will be hcg and ai only for 45days and I feel as if my levels have still held and Im taking way less meds.

 

[RandyBobandy]

hCG will also cause HPTA suppression. If used long-term, Welcome to AIH.

What dose and duration would cause that?

 

[railrider]

Soochers88.
Got my results in today.
Total Test 544 (241-827)
E2 36 <40
TSH .08 (0.40-5.50)

Dr. instructed me to leave the aromasin dosage the same and to start taking the HCG 5x/wk instead of daily. I will be skipping Monday and Friday. Dropping Synthroid to 88mcg daily. We will now be tappering down the hcg to see where or if my levels drop off.

 

[finallyusername]

Hi,

this is a bit older post, but I'll try to revive the discussion.

I can understand Soochers88 very good. I was diagnosed primary hypogonadism with T values around 4 ng/ml, sometimes a bit more, sometimes a bit less. More was ok, if less, up to 3.5 ng/ml I would go crazy. The feeling of depression and anxiety was so overwhelming I really had suicidal thoughts. These feelings disappeared on the next morning if I would use Androgel the day before. Making sense or not, I could not fight the feeling by any logic and "push myself up".

I had a bilateral undescended testes at birth, on the right side corrected at the age of five, at age of 25 the left testes could be found and had to be removed. The remaining testicle did the work quite good, went normally trough puberty etc. However, I was always a bit "whimpy" dont know how else to put it.

I was treated by Androgel 50, later on Nebido, had ok T-values, slightly higher than baseline, around 5 ng/ml, but never felt 7-8 ng/ml during therapy. In addition, testicular atrophy occurred which made me quit the therapy many times and exactly the same number of times I went back due to symptoms.

I was prescribed HCG for fertility reasons 2.5 years ago by a gynocologist, as this is the standard therapy for men to see if endogeneus testosteron is produced. Later on a testicular biopsy was planned, but I never had it done due to finances since I had to pay for the therapy by myself. However, I did use the fertility issue as a form of TRT for all together 2 years (maybe a month or two more).

My values were phenomenal, 7-8-9-10-11 ng/ml I had it all, depending on how long my last HCG shot (1500 IU) was back. I normally hat a blood check 4-5 days after the shot, at the morning before the next one. Never had E2 problems, nor gynekomastia occurred, my E2 was at higher normal range (dont have the numbers in my head at the moment). It was interesting to see that also LH went very high, 15-22 in many cases.

Putting it in words of a simple man, I felt stronger, smarter, more concentrated and could f... more often than all of the guys here in forum together ;-) I even had the idea of going to medical school so I could later on prescribe myself HCG. Currently, I am few months to go from obtaining a PhD in physics and I had a life on the fast lane the last two years both in private as also in professional aspect. Just to give you the idea how good I felt. BTW I started learning 3 foreign languages as one of the hobbies lol.

I was scared of possible side effects since HCG was new for me and I thought there must be a bad side to all of this. I was reassured on several occasions that dosages up to 2000/week do not lead to any desensitization. What I was wondering and still wonder, is how such great success can be achieved with HCG if the LH hormone is so similar. One normally says HCG has 95 % LH characteristics, a bit TSH and a bit FSH. So I produce LH in large amounts, the testes goes to 4 ng/ml, but its almost twin HCG does the job much better.

Surfing trough the internet, many bodybuilders seemed to know much about HCG, my reasons were, however, use rather than missuse. There are 0 scientific publications on HCG for TRT, none, nada. "HCG long term therapy testosterone" in Google gives nothing, at least nothing worth of further pursuing. I've read the paper of Matsumoto et al. where they used HCG to stimulate intertesticular testosterone in gonadotropin supressed men, quite a good paper, but purely experimental with no aspect of using it as a long term therapy.

Dr. Shippen's protocol makes quite good sense, at least for an intelligent non-MD: one either does HCG-monotherapy if one is a "high outputer", or one substitutes partially or fully with testosterone, depending on your HCG reaction. But, who is Dr. Shippen, why are there no scientific papers on the topic, why didnt he write any? This would be a breaktrough in endocrinology and would make a lot of guys happier. The only thing you can read about Dr. Shippen are few websites of non-reliable background and bodybuilders "mouth propaganda".

There is a guy on youtube, "lowtguy" is his login, where he speaks about HCG long term therapy in his case. He has somehow damaged pituitar gland due to concussions in young age, so HCG replaces the missing LH in his case.

HCG shots for primary hypogonadism make absolutely no sense, but they work in many cases. Aside me, I've heard of many others with same results and same doubts what to do after fertility therapy is over. I was switched back to Androgel 50 and hate it. My T is ok, around 5 ng/ml but the feeling is "shit" I am constantly tired and could fall asleep 10 times during the day.

I hope my experience uses someone. If it was my call, I'd stay on HCG for life, but having only a vague idea how it works and if there are any side effects drives me to testosterone therapy and maybe some HCG to have the testicle running.

 

[Donzi]

Dr. Scally,

Thanks for your input. I have been searching for any studies or documentation on HCG "long term" causing damage/suppression to the HPT axis, but I can't seem to find anything. Can you post any documentation you might have? Dr. Eugene Shippen has done a lot of work with HCG monotherapy and from his documentation it appears to work, but the longest study I could find was only for 1 year.

What would you recommend for me as far as TRT is concerned? I have tried to get my doctors to prescribe Testosterone, but they all say I am either 1). too young or 2). my testosterone levels are not low enough. Even though my levels were within the normal range, I had a lot of the symptoms of low T.

u got good Medical Coverage? If so tell the doc u need sum thing for ur nipples. And yes say it like that. Dont led on like u no what u want. Make him feel like he is doing his job & he will set u up... As far as HCG Dr Scally is dead on... I would keep ur Xript but add my own HRT