Dr Swale or anyone. I need help bad!!!

T Man

New Member
I am sorry to report that I am having one hell of time recently. I urgently need some help and suggestions. I will try to explain as simple as I can.

First, I am a HRT vet since 1989. Androderm Patches and Test Cyp injections. When I got tired of the patches I would beg my Endo for injetcable Test Cyp. No HCG/clomid etc over the years.. just test as described.

A year ago I decided to give Powerlifting a try again after many years off. Last June I got real stupid and started a Testosterone only cycle of 400-500 mg per week for about 10 weeks. Than.... last November and December did a cycle of 300-400 Mg of Omnadren a week with dball (30 mg a day) for about 6 weeks and than switched over for about 6 or 7 weeks of Parabolan at 76 mgs per week. The Tren started giving me Panic and anxiety attacks again Was prone to these before with AAS. So I stopped all AAS but the Test at about 300 mg a week for a month or so. I just wanted to go back down to HRT levels of test and use 200 mg per week or less. I wanted to clean out from the 2 cycles and lower my Test levels. With me so far?

I started my Test Taper in late March and April. That is when the problems started. I started having very bad anxiety everytime I shot even 200 mg of HRT test each week. It was like my body was being overstimulated by the Test shots. Horrible anxiety episodes.

By May I was down to 100 mg per week of Test Enanthate/Cyp. I talked to my sympathetic Endo doc and honesly told him what happened. I have known him for 16 years. 2 weeks ago he put me back on the androderm 5 mg patch to lower and stabilize mt T levels. He wanted to see if the anxiety would go away. Most of it did. But the depression didn't really subside. I was brought to tears a few times while starting the patches again. I tried treating the withdrawal and depression with natural Magnesium and aerobic exercise. Couldn't tolerate Zoloft or Paxil. My anxiety went throught the roof after trying each one for just 2 days. My body just didn't want these SSRI's it seemed. I also use a .5 Klonopin once or twice a week and try to be very sparing with this med because of fear of dependence.

The past couple of weeks I think I am making some progress... but my moods are unstable. Good mornings with late afternoon Anxiety/ maybe some mild depression. Someone told me it was the Androderm patches. So 3 days ago my doc put me back on 100 mg a week of Test Cyp. This made me anxious again. I also just tried .25 Arimidex per someones advise. They told me to get stable on the 100 mg T shots and take .25 Arimidex ea day for 2 weeks. And 250iu of HCG 2 times a week for the next 2 weeks if my doc would give it to me. I need some real guidance here. Not sure what to do or not to do at this point. I don't want do further damage.

The million dollar question is is my system suffering from shut down? I should have some baseline blood tests to share by tommorrow. My doc took some tests that I requested before starting the shots again... LH, FSH, Prolactin, Free and Total Test and Estradiol.

I didn't think I would get withdrawal or shut down symptoms going from the 6 months of cycling AAS and going back to HRT T levels. Boy was I wrong and stupid. I lost weight, a total of 28 lbs from Jan to now. Was 175 and now 147 in the mornings. My appetite was horrible and has been steadily picking up the past 2 weeks. I am trying to lift a few times a week and do walk a lot in the evenings with my wife. Trying to boost my mood and HPTA

Bottom line? Is my pituitary still shut down and not caught up from the 2 cycles of AAS? And causing problems by the lower test levels now present. The boys are a little smaller but not shrunken real bad at all. The depression seemed to be related to the lowered but stabile test levels from the Androderm HRT patches. My doctor seems to think it is hormonal depression or a slight change in brain chemistry from the cycles. DOES ANYONE HAVE SOME EXPERIENCE TO SHARE? Is there anything I can recommend to my Endo to help with this situation? He said he is willing to listen and learn. Also any safe clean depression treatments to get me through if needed while the HTPA recovers if I need it?

Bottom line I have been around for a long time and didn't think I did anything stupid. I guess I did. Lifetime HRT guys need PCT also? Thanks and I hope I wrote this so you can get the picture. ANY HELP IS GREATLY APPRECIATED!

T
 
Well... I can contribute little, but since you stated that it's 'urgent'... here we go;

Your HTPA is more than likely 'shut-down' a little from being on HRT. The cycles were definately an antagonist, and probably did shut you down completely. I know many HRT guys that cycle, and they have said that you should do some hCG as PCT before beginning your regular HRT protocol again. If you are shut down, your test results tomorrow will definately show that. BTW... if you had some sort of insurance coverage before telling your doc about your steroid use, you don't now. I've heard horror stories about guys telling their doc that they used steroids, which was inevitably reported to the insurance company and they stopped funding their HRT. Every case is different tho. Good luck, and I hope you get better. BTW(2.0)... there are some VERY experienced and knowledgable bros here that have effectively found ways to treat their depression/anxiety.

Good luck, mate.
 
T,

I agree with Kroms_laugh in that you were probably already suppressed from years of TRT. I'll bet your cycles played havoc with your hormonal balance and that's whats causing your emotions to go crazy, but you already knew that. I bet your estradiol (E2) is through the roof. But not to worry. When your labs come back, ask for a hard copy either from the lab or from your doctor and post the results along with the ranges here. Also, be sure your estradiol test method was "by extraction" or "ultra sensitive", because if it doesn't say that, then you got the womans test and the results will be meaningless (the top of men's normal range is the bottom of a woman's normal range). If that is the case, ask the doctor to retest you for E2. Since you're under the care of a doctor, it's pointless to try stuff on your own to get things in order. Work with him to get everything in balance again. I have great confidence that once your hormones get back in balance, you'll feel like your old self again. By the way, 100mg of test cyp per week is probably enough to take you to near the top of the normal range for T. 200mg/week might be a bad idea. You have to follow up with lab tests to be sure. And 250mg of hCG twice per week should be a normal part of your TRT. See Swale's (Dr. John Crisler) "Recipe for success" sticky above. But you don't want to add that in UNTIL your other hormones are in balance. Relax, you'll be fine soon.
 
My Lab Results

Thanks for your time and help gentleman. By the way I just turned 48 years old two weeks ago.

Here are my Lab results from this week. My Pituitary LH and FSH are totally shut down as expected.

LH .1 (1.5-9.3 MiU/mL)
FSH .3 (.9-15 MiU/ML)
Total Testosterone 740 (241-827 ng/dl) After 2 weeks on Androderm patches
Free Testosterone 21.3 (6.8-21.5)
Estradiol 39 (<54 for adult male) Not sure what method of testing
Prolactin 4.4 (1.8-14.4 ng/ml)


This past tuesday I started 100 mg shots of Test Cyp from my doctor. Stopped wearing the Androderm patches. My mood seemed to take a nose dive every late afternoon or early evening. Was this due to the daily hormone fluctuations from the Androderm. My doc seems to think the shots will stabilize my mood if I can find the right dose that won't add to the anxiety. He said he will retest the T levels after a couple of weeks on the shots. When should I have the test done? On day 7 before my next shot?

Also because of the occuring anxiety with recovery... can I spit the 100 mg shots into 2 times a week? Would this help? Or should I try taking a little less at around 80 mg per week? Also my doc says he wants info on why I should be taking HCG with HRT. He didn't think it was necessary except for fertility.

What about Arimidex? Should I be using a little bit of it now also? Someone on another board told me to take .25 mg for 2 weeks to help get back to normal. In addition to HCG 250 iu twice a week. I took .25 mg the other day to see how it made me feel. But I don't want to screw with my estrogen level if that is not needed.

I need a plan to present to my Endo. He is a good guy.. but is a thyroid expert not HRT and Pituitary. For some reason the stickies on this site won't let me have access to the word documents. Says I am not authorized. I just joined this site last weekend. How do I get access to download and print the documents??

Sorry for the long posts... just want to get some correct help and get back on the right path. Me and my doctor need all the education we can get.... Thanks!!!

Best regards T
 
I'm still trying to get over the surprise that your endo knows enough to prescribe weekly dosing of testosterone cypionate. Many guys search and search, but are unable to find an endo that seems to have a clue like yours.

What area are you in, anyway?
 
Wow, that's a lot of information. Not sure what to say.

Have you thought about asking you endo to get a psychiatrist involved? Seriously, it might be a good idea.
 
Need to find a plan... I'll take all the help I can get.

I am in the Philadelphia, PA area.

Yes I have consulted a Psychiatrist. But my Endo wants to wait and see if I feel better after stabilizing my test on the lower levels of 100 mg or so. High T levels triggered this anxiety. So I have to find a dose that I am not anxious with. I am not sure what to do at this point. I think first stabilize the hormones at mid range normal. Than maybe get some sort of treatment for the anxiety and fading mood each afternoon. I usually feel very good first thing in the morning. After 4pm each day my mood seems to fade to a some anxiety and mild depression. My wife and I go exercise or power walk each evening and it seems to pick up my mood somewhat. Eating a clean supper seems to pick me up also in the evening. I have what I would describe as spells or episodes that get worse in the early evening usually. Although I have had some depression on the weekends during the day a few weeks ago.

Does anyone know of a anxiety/depression med that has few side effects?

I was hoping that if I got some functioning back of my Pituitary LH/FSH that this might start to relieve the anxiety/depression symptoms. I know this was brought on by the AAS abd high levels of Test during the 2 cycles I took. I was on too long I guess. Is HCG or Arimidex of any use at this point? What can help kick start or just elevate my Pituitary levels?
 
OMG I'M IN PHILLY AND NEED A NEW ENDO....... IF YOUR ENDO IS 1/2 DECENT (WHICH HE SEEMS TO BE GIVING U TEST ONCE A WEEK) PLZ GIVE ME HIS NAME WHAT HOSPITAL AND HIS NUMBER.............. if u have aim i would really like to talk to u about it for a few brief mins............... thx
 
T Man said:
I am in the Philadelphia, PA area.

Yes I have consulted a Psychiatrist. But my Endo wants to wait and see if I feel better after stabilizing my test on the lower levels of 100 mg or so. High T levels triggered this anxiety. So I have to find a dose that I am not anxious with. I am not sure what to do at this point. I think first stabilize the hormones at mid range normal. Than maybe get some sort of treatment for the anxiety and fading mood each afternoon. I usually feel very good first thing in the morning. After 4pm each day my mood seems to fade to a some anxiety and mild depression. My wife and I go exercise or power walk each evening and it seems to pick up my mood somewhat. Eating a clean supper seems to pick me up also in the evening. I have what I would describe as spells or episodes that get worse in the early evening usually. Although I have had some depression on the weekends during the day a few weeks ago.

Does anyone know of a anxiety/depression med that has few side effects?

I was hoping that if I got some functioning back of my Pituitary LH/FSH that this might start to relieve the anxiety/depression symptoms. I know this was brought on by the AAS abd high levels of Test during the 2 cycles I took. I was on too long I guess. Is HCG or Arimidex of any use at this point? What can help kick start or just elevate my Pituitary levels?
I think you need to bit the bullet for 4 - 6 weeks here until you level off. You can up the Arimidex to .5 everyday in this time. Then get tested again. I have bad Anxiety and panic attacks from high E2 Estradiol levels. My Dr. was shocked when I got my E2 down all the shit I was going through in the last 10 yrs. was gone. To much to list.
I have been doing the Relaxation Response for over 15 yrs. this has helped me a lot. Here is a link on how to do it and if you have trouble falling a sleep do this laying down and you will fall to sleep.
http://www.ucop.edu/humres/eap/relaxationrespone.html
I also went to Recovery-inc. meetings they are all over the world. This help me more then any AD med or head Dr. ever did.
http://www.recovery-inc.com/
But the bottom line is to get leveled off and keep you E2 in check.
Phil
 
I think my first breakthrough just happened!

BigRagu I don't have AIM. Let me know how to contact you and I will tell you what I know about my Doctor. I did a search and there are many HRT Docs in the Philly, NJ, De area. I did a search from the "National T tuneup site" posted with a sticky. I did a doc search from there incase I need a more knowledgable doc myself.


Thanks Phil for the info I certainly will look into all of it. It is reasurring that others have beat this. I am now really convinced it is my Pituitary shut down causing most of this. I had a good snack a few hours ago after having a mild downer episode. I than went out to the health food store and all of a sudden my mood started lifting and everything got brighter.... meaning colors appeared to be richer or something. Than I started getting a sensation in the front of my head and my testicles started to feel like they were being stimulated. Sounds like a hormone surge or semi surge to me. Almost felt like my testicles had received a little of HCG. Mild burningin the testes and some libido increase. I also felt calmer and the anxiety really went down a few notches. It sort of was a mild euphoric feeling.

Is it possible that the .25 Arimidex I took 2 days ago and heavy exercise are actually starting to kick in some pituitary action? I have no idea what my E2 levels are at present. My doctor didn't check my estrogen correctly. I told him I needed E2 checked. I don't think he understands the E2 and T ratio connection. Also was reluctant to give me HCG. I was a bit afraid of the .25 Arimidex because I didn't know if I screw with myself further by lowing my estrogen to much or something like that. I am trying to find some correct info on using Arimidex at this point in my recovery attempt. I have no prior knowledge or experience with it. Its been for sure 5 to 7 weeks since I tapered myself back down to HRT levels from high levels.

DO I NEED ARIMIDEX????
Maybe my hormones are slowly adjusting. SHOULD I be using Arimidex at all right now??? If it will help jump start some function In the HPTA I am all for it. Anyone???
 
you were advised on another board

by two good medical sources to wait until you stabilized and not to self medicate as your endo was on top of your condition. Your anxiety has leaked over here so you ask the same quastion after being given good medical advice. I know you are the medical consumer but you must cooperate in your own treatment by NOT constantly asking for more advice prematurely. Good luck as I know you are legitmately concerned but please take the advice to learn some natural relaxation techniques.
 
NO I think you E2 test is good my E2 range is <20 - 56 and your E2 was 39 for me that makes me feel bad. If you are starting to feel better then stay with what you are doing. The link I gave you on R R will help you when you get real stressed out but you need to do it 2 x's a day to get good at it then when you feeling bad do it. I have stoped panic attacks doing it.
Phil
 
prot said:
by two good medical sources to wait until you stabilized and not to self medicate as your endo was on top of your condition. Your anxiety has leaked over here so you ask the same quastion after being given good medical advice. I know you are the medical consumer but you must cooperate in your own treatment by NOT constantly asking for more advice prematurely. Good luck as I know you are legitmately concerned but please take the advice to learn some natural relaxation techniques.


I am by no means self medicating! I have Doctors who want me to get as much info as I can to help them help me! I do practice relaxation techniques before I go to bed each evening. My Endo is not very knowlegable in male HRT. He as much told me so. He said we will do this together. I did not pull myself of off Androderm patches. It was by my Endo. He thought I would be more stabilized on 100 mg shots than daily ups and downs of patches.

I am seeking knowledge and guidance here. I posted my problem here in the HRT forum because of the traffic and education I may gain here. I show my endo all relevant posts from here and over on the other board. I have every intention of following through with my course of treatment. I would rather not take SSRI's and other anti-anxiety meds because of withdrawal side effects and addiction concerns. withdrawal from Paxil or benzodiazipines is hell. Thats a fact. Thats it pure and simple. My anxiety is not spilling over here. I just want good advise such as the Arimidex issue.. pure and simple. Do I need it with a estrogen level of 39 or not? Pretty simple question.

Yes I need help.... my life isn't very easy lately. I want to do the right things for me. Thanks for your support.
 
To Greyowl and others who have posted on my behalf..

Please read my above post above as well.... I have taken to heart your info. I will go this route if my endo and Psychiatrist think it is the way to go. YOU GENTLEMAN HAVE THE WRONG IMPRESSION! I am not trying to treat myself. I have a team of doctors who are not sure where to start. My Endo and Psychiatrist think that my anxiety may go away after hormone stablization for a while. My Pituitary is flat out shut down now. The Doctors are willing to work together and said they need to flesh this out and take it one step at a time. First the hormones and than if needed anxiety and depression treatment.

I have klonopin for very bad times. I am very comfortable with taking it a few times a week... no more. I just don't want to get addicted. I am not familiar with Ativan. My Endo did mention this as well. THE DOCS TOLD ME TO FIND OUT ANYTHING THAT MAY BE RELEVENT TO STEROID WITHDRAWAL AND PITUITARY RECOVERY. THEY HAVE EVERY INTENTION OF TREATING MY ANXIETY OR DEPRESSION IN DUE COURSE. That is why I have posted on 2 boards. I am and Electrical Engineer and have dealt with details all of my life. I pride myself on knowing the facts. I didn't mean to upset anyone. I don't want to come off as a ranting lunatic. Just someone in need of your knowledge and support. I can't do this alone and my Docs agree. WE are searching.

I have not taken anything but the 1 dose of Arimidex without getting it from my doctor. And he knew I was going to try it. The doctors pulled me off of Zoloft and Prozac because of severe agitation and the nausea it caused. Yes they are considering just what course of action Greyowl has described. My Depression has pretty much lifted. It is just dealing with hot flashes and anxiety from time to time. Overall I have improved over the last 2 months without really any steady treatment except lowering the T levels and a bit of Klonopin. I am exploring natural anti-anxiety supplements as well. Thanks for listening.
 
I'd defer to HeadDoc should he happen upon this thread.

But you need labwork to decide whether you need Arimidex or not. Why woul dyou add in something that you do not know whether or not you need? Whoever told you to take it before should not be listened to. Estrogen plays an important role in our emotional state, and must not be driven too low.
 
T Man said:
Please read my above post above as well.... I have taken to heart your info. I will go this route if my endo and Psychiatrist think it is the way to go. YOU GENTLEMAN HAVE THE WRONG IMPRESSION! I am not trying to treat myself. I have a team of doctors who are not sure where to start. My Endo and Psychiatrist think that my anxiety may go away after hormone stablization for a while. My Pituitary is flat out shut down now. The Doctors are willing to work together and said they need to flesh this out and take it one step at a time. First the hormones and than if needed anxiety and depression treatment.

I have klonopin for very bad times. I am very comfortable with taking it a few times a week... no more. I just don't want to get addicted. I am not familiar with Ativan. My Endo did mention this as well. THE DOCS TOLD ME TO FIND OUT ANYTHING THAT MAY BE RELEVENT TO STEROID WITHDRAWAL AND PITUITARY RECOVERY. THEY HAVE EVERY INTENTION OF TREATING MY ANXIETY OR DEPRESSION IN DUE COURSE. That is why I have posted on 2 boards. I am and Electrical Engineer and have dealt with details all of my life. I pride myself on knowing the facts. I didn't mean to upset anyone. I don't want to come off as a ranting lunatic. Just someone in need of your knowledge and support. I can't do this alone and my Docs agree. WE are searching.

I have not taken anything but the 1 dose of Arimidex without getting it from my doctor. And he knew I was going to try it. The doctors pulled me off of Zoloft and Prozac because of severe agitation and the nausea it caused. Yes they are considering just what course of action Greyowl has described. My Depression has pretty much lifted. It is just dealing with hot flashes and anxiety from time to time. Overall I have improved over the last 2 months without really any steady treatment except lowering the T levels and a bit of Klonopin. I am exploring natural anti-anxiety supplements as well. Thanks for listening.
I have been though all the shit you are going through as far as feelings go I think people are not reading your posts from the top to the bottom. If you could E-mail me I can tell you more that will or will not help you, all I can tell you is what I did and went through I am not a Dr. Klonopin, Prozac, Zoloft, Remeron and so on have been on them all. And they never helped me.
pmgamer18@yahoo.com
Phil
 
pmgamer18 said:
Prozac, Zoloft, Remeron and so on have been on them all. And they never helped me.
pmgamer18@yahoo.com
Phil

In which case you're in a very small minority, since a very large majority of people with anxiety disorders eventually find a medication or combo of meds that works for them, especially when they take it n conjunction with counselling from a credentialed mental health care provider.

I suspect the individual who started this thread would be a member of the majority, but he'll never know for sure since he has given up on SSRIs after trying one for only two days.
 
They never helped me because I was not suffering from Depression Dr.'s could not find what was wrong with me so they felt it must be depression. I was on AD meds for 5 yrs and all they did was make me worse. When they found out I had low T and starting treating me I was much better. I was out on sick leave for over 5 yrs. going on TRT I was able to go back to work.
Phil
 
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