Finished first natty show, ready for cycle

[Big_paul]

I agree with Paul. But its equally important to make informed decisions. Keep digging and asking questions. Good luck either way.

We are not his parents, and I am no one to judge anyone. You want my advice, you got it free of charge, just like myself when vets helped me out when I first got here. We may disagree with your decision for one reason or another, but you asked for it and you got it.

Like i said brother, I wish you the best in your endeavor.

 

[Northern Nutrition]

Can't answer my response? Who would have known.. The parrot and circle jerker NN

You know Sworder, i actually thought there might be light at the end of the tunnel for you. But clearly youre unreachable and have your own agenda here. So from now on when you act stupid im going to simply remind the membership what a complete waste of time and groceries you really are with the above classic foolishness outlined by CBS. No sense bothering him, im sure he has better things to do with his time as well. This will be my last response to you in this thread.

OP, i hope you continue to research your cycle and the potential side effects that can and often does occur from premature use of AAS.

 

[MrRippedZilla]

If you don't plan on competing as a pro then I echo the recommendation of waiting until your 23-25.
I used to compete as a natural BBer and got interested in AAS when I turned 25 and was frustrated with the slow progress so I do know where your coming from. But since I had no interest in turning pro, there was no reason for me to start cycling - especially since I was still making gains (slow as it was).

There is evidence, getting stronger by the day, that your brain isn't fully done developing until your early-mid 20s & we already know that steroids seem to alter certain aspects of the brain (the implications of this are unclear as of yet).
There is also evidence that your Leydig cells are not fully developed until your early 20s. Considering the main hypotheses explaining why people don't recover from steroids concerns Leydig cell dysfunction - I hope you can see why it would be stupid to mess around with this.

Considering these are pretty important aspects of the endocrine system, I think it unwise to interfere with the natural growth processes before they've been completed

 

[Dr JIM]

Hi, I just finished my first local men's physique competition. I placed 6 and i'm very happy with the results. I did however discover two things, one that I really want to keep on competing, and two that I want to compete in bodybuilding not men's physique.

I have been training since I was 13 years old, and thanks to bodybuilding I have stayed away from both alcohol, tobacco and drugs. I am 21 years old now, I weight about 200 lbs, and my bodyfat is 12%

I know that 21 is considered too young on this forums, but I really want to try to compete in junior bodybuilding, and if I want to do so I have to act fast, and build the required mass.

My main concern is damage reduction, I want to do this cycle as safe and well planned as possible.

I have been reading a lot and think this should be an optimal beginner cycle.

Week 1-12: Test-E 500 mg/week
Week 1-12: HCG 500 iu/week
Week: 13-15: Take nothing
Week 16-17: Nolvadex 40 mg/day
Week 18-19: Nolvadex 20 mg/day

I will also have arimidex on hand, and only run if needed. I am also using finasterid as I want to keep my hair as much as possible.

Now to my question, all those horror stories you read on the internet, are the main reason for those stories bad planned cycles and people doing things they have no clue about or is it just as likely to happen bad side effects to people who plan their cycle to the last bit? My main concerns are ED and infertility. How likely are those to happen to someone my age, with a mild cycle like this?

Yea that's right YOU SRE TO YOUNG t be cycling, and that's just a FACT!

 

[SEOINAGE]

Going to have to agree. Take advantage of that young high testosterone levels, that you have at all times, without complications of a cycle and pct, and screwing that all up, so you are screwed when you are done.
Keep working on your goals of competing etc by all means, just do it without the drugs for now.

 

[Sworder]

You know Sworder, i actually thought there might be light at the end of the tunnel for you. But clearly youre unreachable and have your own agenda here. So from now on when you act stupid im going to simply remind the membership what a complete waste of time and groceries you really are with the above classic foolishness outlined by CBS. No sense bothering him, im sure he has better things to do with his time as well. This will be my last response to you in this thread.

OP, i hope you continue to research your cycle and the potential side effects that can and often does occur from premature use of AAS.

Deflect more

Have Zilla's response be the "explaining."

There is evidence, getting stronger by the day, that your brain isn't fully done developing until your early-mid 20s & we already know that steroids seem to alter certain aspects of the brain (the implications of this are unclear as of yet).
There is also evidence that your Leydig cells are not fully developed until your early 20s. Considering the main hypotheses explaining why people don't recover from steroids concerns Leydig cell dysfunction - I hope you can see why it would be stupid to mess around with this.

Citations please

Also, the leydig cells don't " fully develop" how? Peak testosterone levels and LH signaling occurs 15-20. Why would the leydig cells develop more as LH/tT slows down? Obviously it has passed its peak.
http://www.mayomedicallaboratories.com/test-catalog/Clinical+and+Interpretive/83686

Reference Values

TESTOSTERONE, TOTAL

Males

0-5 months: 75-400 ng/dL

6 months-9 years: <7-20 ng/dL

10-11 years: <7-130 ng/dL

12-13 years: <7-800 ng/dL

14 years: <7-1,200 ng/dL

15-16 years: 100-1,200 ng/dL

17-18 years: 300-1,200 ng/dL

> or =19 years: 240-950 ng/dL

 

[MrRippedZilla]

Hmm let me see how about this for brain development....

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11698594

"In this study, we conducted detailed spatial and temporal analyses of growth and gray matter density at the cortical surface of the brain in a group of 35 normally developing children, adolescents, and young adults...
Fourteen children (7–11 years; mean age, 9.3 ± 1.3 years; 7 boys and 7 girls), 11 adolescents (12–16 years; mean age, 13.8 ± 1.6 years; 6 boys and 5 girls), and 10 young adults (23–30 years; mean age, 25.6 ± 2.0 years; 5 men and 5 women) were studied...
In this report...we have mapped the spatial distribution of late brain growth and demonstrate that it does indeed continue in the frontal and posterior temporal lobes during the postadolescent years regardless of whether individual differences in global brain size are controlled."

The post adolescent group had an average age of 25 by the way.

And this for Leydig cells...

http://www.springer.com/cda/content...8291318-c2.pdf?SGWID=0-0-45-396766-p173728262.

"The precursor cells for adult Leydig cells begin their transformation at approx 10 yr of age, and differentiation is complete by 13 yr of age....During puberty, the number of adult Leydig cells increases and reaches a maximum of 5x10^8 per testis in the early 20s..."

Keep thinking you know everything man - some people are so far behind in a race that they actually think they're leading

 

[Sworder]

http://www.springer.com/cda/content...8291318-c2.pdf?SGWID=0-0-45-396766-p173728262.

"The precursor cells for adult Leydig cells begin their transformation at approx 10 yr of age, and differentiation is complete by 13 yr of age....During puberty, the number of adult Leydig cells increases and reaches a maximum of 5x10^8 per testis in the early 20s..."

Keep thinking you know everything man - some people are so far behind in a race that they actually think they're leading

WTF does brain development have to do with the HPTA? And how is it testing it? THERE IS NOTHING IN YOUR QUOTE THAT REFERS TO THE HPTA!! DUH DUH DUH!!!

For the leydig cells, what does it matter about cellular structure? Explain more please.
Here read this article about Leydig cell proliferation during different ages, it is still not conclusive one way or another about anything. I haven't stated that I know everything lol you guys are the ones that say that. I am asking "OH, HOW DID YOU COME TO THAT CONCLUSION?" and then y'all idiots deflect, personal attacks or change the subject. Doing the CBS!

You going to continue the discussion or run away like everybody else? Or just keep doing the CBS?

INSL3 as a biomarker of Leydig cell functionality
http://www.biolreprod.org/content/early/2013/04/12/biolreprod.113.108969.full.pdf
In some species, for example humans, there appears to be an intermediate population of Leydig cells manifest in the immediate postnatal phase of infancy. These cells give rise to the peak in testosterone production at 3-4 months referred to as the ‘mini-puberty’ [19]. The origin of these cells is obscure, although there is some evidence to suggest that they may actually represent an independent generation of Leydig cells from resident stem cells [20,21]. Whether these cells involute again only to redifferentiate during puberty is not known. It appears that the ‘minipuberty’ is accompanied also by a burst in INSL3 secretion into the blood [22]. Part of the confusion in interpretation here is due to the fact that Leydig cells are traditionally defined by their mature phenotype; if cells of that description are not identifiable, they are considered to have disappeared or died, when in fact they may only have dedifferentiated, for example, in the absence of gonadotropin stimulation. Under normal circumstances, there are very few observations of actual Leydig cell death or apoptosis in the older testis.

 

[MrRippedZilla]

Lol your treating the brain & HPTA as these separate entities - they're not.

As for the impact of AAS on the brain, well clearly SOMETHING is going on:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25986964

"This multimodal magnetic resonance imaging study of the brain compared 10 male weightlifters reporting long-term AAS use with 10 age-matched weightlifters reporting no AAS exposure...
AAS users had larger right amygdala volumes than nonusers (P=0.002) and reduced rsFC between right amygdala and frontal, striatal, limbic, hippocampal, and visual cortical areas."

And no, I'm not going to sit here and educate you about Leydig cell function since you've provided nothing of substance to counteract any of the evidence I've given.
All I will say is that the study you posted actually serves as evidence that these cells are NOT fully developed during puberty - in other words it backs MY position up:

"In human puberty, the situation appears to be less clear in that, while circulating INSL3 concentrations increase as expected, by Tanner stage 5 they appear still not to have attained by some large margin the concentrations observed in young adulthood [45, 46]. This would imply that there is still substantial development of the Leydig cells in young men subsequent to reaching Tanner stage 5 at around 15–17 yr of age."

The data indicates that AAS has an impact on the brain - what this impact means we don't really know.
The data indicates that brain development continues into the mid 20s.
The data indicates that Leydig Cells are NOT fully developed until the early 20s.
The leading hypotheses among professionals regarding the lack of recovery post AAS concerns Leydig Cell dysfunction. The data isn't conclusive but its the best answer we have at the moment.

Now, considering all of this, a RATIONAL person using their critical reasoning skills would conclude that its best to play it safe and wait until you reach 23-25.

No deflections, no personal attacks, no subject changes.
I will end this discussion with a repeat - some people are so behind in a race that they actually think they're leading

 

[Sworder]

Lol your treating the brain & HPTA as these separate entities - they're not.

As for the impact of AAS on the brain, well clearly SOMETHING is going on:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25986964

"This multimodal magnetic resonance imaging study of the brain compared 10 male weightlifters reporting long-term AAS use with 10 age-matched weightlifters reporting no AAS exposure...
AAS users had larger right amygdala volumes than nonusers (P=0.002) and reduced rsFC between right amygdala and frontal, striatal, limbic, hippocampal, and visual cortical areas."

And no, I'm not going to sit here and educate you about Leydig cell function since you've provided nothing of substance to counteract any of the evidence I've given.
All I will say is that the study you posted actually serves as evidence that these cells are NOT fully developed during puberty - in other words it backs my position up:

"In human puberty, the situation appears to be less clear in that, while circulating INSL3 concentrations increase as expected, by Tanner stage 5 they appear still not to have attained by some large margin the concentrations observed in young adulthood [45, 46]. This would imply that there is still substantial development of the Leydig cells in young men subsequent to reaching Tanner stage 5 at around 15–17 yr of age."

The data indicates that AAS has an impact on the brain - what this impact means we don't really know.
The data indicates that brain development continues into the mid 20s.
The data indicates that Leydig Cells are NOT fully developed until the early 20s.
The leading hypotheses among professionals regarding the lack of recovery post AAS concerns Leydig Cell dysfunction. The data isn't conclusive but its the best answer we have at the moment.

No deflections, no personal attacks, no subject changes

Good job, no CBS style.

In regards to the brain, what conclusive evidence do you feel you can give in regards to brain size and the HPTA function as I see none in regards to the HPTA? AAS do play a big part of brain development I am not arguing that, but are you stating that a larger right hemisphere decreases the ability of the HPTA? Or what result does the brain activity have on the HPTA? Lower gonadtropin release? Lower LH/FSH signaling? Nope!

The leydig cell issue like I said isn't conclusive one way or another. Can you proclaim a statement that is true and use it in your argument? For example, Leydig cell development/maturation isn't fully completed until age XX WHICH RESULTS IN XXXXXXXXX. See how the argument fails as there is no result from what your "argument" is. Basically whatever you are saying is "so fucking what?" Need leydig cell stimulation get some hCG and be done with it.

I haven't proclaimed an argument besides that tT peaks before 20 so in regards to creating testosterone beyond 20 years of age is going to be to a lesser degree than before 20 hence I do not understand what "damage" can be done nor the implied "importance" of leydig cell maturation. I am asking y'all that stated that the HPTA doesn't reach full maturation "WTF do you mean?"

You have brought up the leydig cells not reaching full maturation until early 20s. I have not argued that point, I asked what clinical data you are using to make that statement and secondly how are you interpreting the data to have an effect on the topic we are talking about.

I am not fighting you, I read the data in the article posted and am fully aware of what it stated. Why does everybody think I am trying to be right? I am trying to find more information and continuing these kind of debates actually makes me learn a lot more. The more digging, the more information is read, the more knowledge you get.

I will continue this discussion further and do some more digging if not now hoping we can stay on topic.

Also, "The leading hypotheses among professionals regarding the lack of recovery post AAS concerns Leydig Cell dysfunction." this is true and it is also why it is so important to use hCG. The statement doesn't concern this topic as far as maturation, but atrophy from a lack of stimuli is certainly why most PCTs/restart programs fail. If you are trying to tie it into the discussion once again I could say that use hCG and you will be good to go.

 

[CensoredBoardsSuck]

Why does everybody think I am trying to be right? I am trying to find more information and continuing these kind of debates actually makes me learn a lot more. The more digging, the more information is read, the more knowledge you get.

I don't think you're trying to be right. Your thought process is too deeply flawed, your arguments too full of logical fallacies, your questions too inane, your assertions too silly, and your ability to use reason and logic to arrive at conclusions too nonexistent to ever convince anyone that you're right, much less that you're trying to be right. The fact is, even if you were right it would be due to serendipity alone rather than anything to do with you personally.

What I do I think is that you are grandiose and delusional. You try to present yourself as some kind of half-assed intellectual because that's how you see yourself. You believe that by playing the role of the contrarian, it will make you appear intelligent to others; that it convinces others that your vast and powerful intellect allows you to see the errors and inconsistencies that others can not see, and that it enables you to learn what others can not know.

But you have doubts in the image. Deep down inside you have a nagging feeling that it's all an illusion; that you're really not smart. And your lack of education and employment prospects is a source of great anxiety in your life because it's a stark reminder that you haven't lived up to what you believe is your true potential. It conflicts with the image you've created of yourself; i.e., that you are intellectually superior. So you try to quiet the doubts by writing antithetical and critical posts in the hope that they will make you appear intelligent, and as a result, generate the positive feedback you need to affirm and reaffirm the image you have of yourself. But the doubts continue and so you must keep trying. To give up would be too painful to even contemplate.

In short, you're a fucking nutcase. Seek help.

 

[ChuckSipes]

I don't think you're trying to be right. Your thought process is too deeply flawed, your arguments too full of logical fallacies, your questions too inane, your assertions too silly, and your ability to use reason and logic to arrive at conclusions too nonexistent to ever convince anyone that you're right, much less that you're trying to be right. The fact is, even if you were right it would be due to serendipity alone rather than anything to do with you personally.

What I do I think is that you are grandiose and delusional. You try to present yourself as some kind of half-assed intellectual because that's how you see yourself. You believe that by playing the role of the contrarian, it will make you appear intelligent to others; that it convinces others that your vast and powerful intellect allows you to see the errors and inconsistencies that others can not see, and that it enables you to learn what others can not know.

But you have doubts in the image. Deep down inside you have a nagging feeling that it's all an illusion; that you're really not smart. And your lack of education and employment prospects is a source of great anxiety in your life because it's a stark reminder that you haven't lived up to what you believe is your true potential. It conflicts with the image you've created of yourself; i.e., that you are intellectually superior. So you try to quiet the doubts by writing antithetical and critical posts in the hope that they will make you appear intelligent, and as a result, generate the positive feedback you need to affirm and reaffirm the image you have of yourself. But the doubts continue so you must keep trying. To give up would be too painful to even contemplate.

In short, you're a fucking nutcase. Seek help.

wow

 

[Dr JIM]

In short, you're a fucking nutcase. Seek help.

While it was a most interesting and applicable read, you could have save me a lot of time by posting the underscored FIRST mate!

(Ok I'll admit it, it was a well positioned and perfectly timed "gotcha", that made me chuckle endlessly for several minutes LOL)

 

[Sworder]

But you have doubts in the image. Deep down inside you have a nagging feeling that it's all an illusion; that you're really not smart. And your lack of education and employment prospects is a source of great anxiety in your life because it's a stark reminder that you haven't lived up to what you believe is your true potential. It conflicts with the image you've created of yourself; i.e., that you are intellectually superior. So you try to quiet the doubts by writing antithetical and critical posts in the hope that they will make you appear intelligent, and as a result, generate the positive feedback you need to affirm and reaffirm the image you have of yourself. But the doubts continue so you must keep trying. To give up would be too painful to even contemplate.

In short, you're a fucking nutcase. Seek help.

You can think what you want about me. I don't care to share my personal life here. Any explanation would just seem like bragging and I don't need to make anybody think I am something special because I am not.
I am an online entity here and I don't need to put "DR" in my name or something stupid like that. That is a way to try to get online recognition, to make myself feel special by claiming I am "something."
I am not something but an online alias, think of my personal life however you want. My posts are the only thing that I want people to think of when they read it. I don't need or want any sort of online respect.

I live with my mom that you fucked and don't have a job. How is that? Also, keep it down please when you are banging my mom. I can hear the bed rocking against the wall and it wakes me up.

CBS doing the CBS, deflect, personal attacks and change the subject.

Good to see you have people jerking you off still maintain the circle jerk. Dr Jim you are down to the level of giving hand-jobs to the heroin addict now? I guess your mental state is shown in your posts so it doesn't surprise me.

 

[Northern Nutrition]

I don't think you're trying to be right. Your thought process is too deeply flawed, your arguments too full of logical fallacies, your questions too inane, your assertions too silly, and your ability to use reason and logic to arrive at conclusions too nonexistent to ever convince anyone that you're right, much less that you're trying to be right. The fact is, even if you were right it would be due to serendipity alone rather than anything to do with you personally.

What I do I think is that you are grandiose and delusional. You try to present yourself as some kind of half-assed intellectual because that's how you see yourself. You believe that by playing the role of the contrarian, it will make you appear intelligent to others; that it convinces others that your vast and powerful intellect allows you to see the errors and inconsistencies that others can not see, and that it enables you to learn what others can not know.

But you have doubts in the image. Deep down inside you have a nagging feeling that it's all an illusion; that you're really not smart. And your lack of education and employment prospects is a source of great anxiety in your life because it's a stark reminder that you haven't lived up to what you believe is your true potential. It conflicts with the image you've created of yourself; i.e., that you are intellectually superior. So you try to quiet the doubts by writing antithetical and critical posts in the hope that they will make you appear intelligent, and as a result, generate the positive feedback you need to affirm and reaffirm the image you have of yourself. But the doubts continue and so you must keep trying. To give up would be too painful to even contemplate.

In short, you're a fucking nutcase. Seek help.

This is absolutely the best post ever that sums up Sworder. Thank you for taking the time to compile a well written and definitive summary that eloquently defines this whacko.

 

[Sworder]

This is absolutely the best post ever that sums up Sworder. Thank you for taking the time to compile a well written and definitive summary that eloquently defines this whacko.

 

[Dr JIM]

This is absolutely the best post ever that sums up Sworder. Thank you for taking the time to compile a well written and definitive summary that eloquently defines this whacko.

Indeed in fact I think that prose was so apropos and evidence based it would qualify, if not over qualify, as Wikipedia's up and coming "Meso's Sworder" intro.

 

[Sworder]

Yea that's right YOU SRE TO YOUNG t be cycling, and that's just a FACT!

lol

Indeed in fact I think that prose was so apropos and evidence based it would qualify, if not over qualify, as Wikipedia's up and coming "Meso's Sworder" intro.

 

[stargab]

Thought I could update you guys. I knew deep down that I should not be doing it, and that's what I'm going with. Will set it on hold till next year at least, and decided to go on a heavy bulk. This way I wont be doing it even if I want to, due to higher bodyfat. But I do however really want to know my test levels. So I booked an appointment with my doctor. But which tests should I ask him to do? Free testosterone and total testosterone?

 

[Sworder]

Free test total test lh fsh estradiol at the very least