First Cycle - SARMs - Feedback Welcome

[cargin]

Stats:
22M
5’9”, 161 lbs, ~14.5% BF

Currently known bloodwork:
Total T: 816
Free T: 113.4
TSH: 1.39
IGF-1: 113

Training consistently for 4+ years

Cycle Layout:
* Ostarine (MK-2866): 15mg ED for 8 weeks
* Tesamorelin: 1mg, 6x/week for 12 weeks

Bloodwork:
* Pre-cycle: Total Test, Free Test, LH, E2, Lipids
* Post-cycle (Week 9): Same panel


PCT Plan (depending on suppression)
* Option A: Enclomiphene 6.25mg ED from Week 4–12
*Option B: Standard PCT starting Week 8–12 at same dose

Diet & Training:
* Calories: 2500–2700/day
* Protein: ~180g/day
* Moderate carbs/fats
* Training 4–5x/week, Chest/back/arms/legs split, ~80 min sessions + 15 min daily cardio



Looking for specific feedback on:
* PCT timing (early enclo vs post-cycle)
* Diet/macros for lean mass focus
* Bloodwork
* Advice for or against stacking
* Anything obvious I’m overlooking
* More information I can provide


Would appreciate constructive feedback before I pull the trigger. I've already decided I want to do a SARM cycle so you're welcome to advise me against it but it might be a waste of your time.

 

[BigTomJ]

Too small, too young, too uninformed.

No peds for you.

There is zero circumstances where a SARMs cycle makes sense. Literally zero

 

[cargin]

Too small, too young, too uninformed.

No peds for you.

There is zero circumstances where a SARMs cycle makes sense. Literally zero

I'm sure preaching abstinence must work every time lol. I already took feedback on whether or not to take compounds and I've made my decision in that regard, looking for feedback in the areas I listed.

 

[BamaCrazy]

Stats:
22M
5’9”, 161 lbs, ~14.5% BF

Currently known bloodwork:
Total T: 816
Free T: 113.4
TSH: 1.39
IGF-1: 113

Training consistently for 4+ years

Cycle Layout:
* Ostarine (MK-2866): 15mg ED for 8 weeks
* Tesamorelin: 1mg, 6x/week for 12 weeks

Bloodwork:
* Pre-cycle: Total Test, Free Test, LH, E2, Lipids
* Post-cycle (Week 9): Same panel


PCT Plan (depending on suppression)
* Option A: Enclomiphene 6.25mg ED from Week 4–12
*Option B: Standard PCT starting Week 8–12 at same dose

Diet & Training:
* Calories: 2500–2700/day
* Protein: ~180g/day
* Moderate carbs/fats
* Training 4–5x/week, Chest/back/arms/legs split, ~80 min sessions + 15 min daily cardio



Looking for specific feedback on:
* PCT timing (early enclo vs post-cycle)
* Diet/macros for lean mass focus
* Bloodwork
* Advice for or against stacking
* Anything obvious I’m overlooking
* More information I can provide


Would appreciate constructive feedback before I pull the trigger. I've already decided I want to do a SARM cycle so you're welcome to advise me against it but it might be a waste of your time.

I’m mainly curious. Ostarine doesn’t help much with gaining muscle mass. Maybe not at all. It seems to help prevent muscle atrophy during caloric deficits. You are already very light with low BF%. Why would you risk damaging your liver when you could just use exogenous testosterone? What are your short and long term training goals?

 

[bighunanballs]

Too small, too young, too uninformed.

No peds for you.

There is zero circumstances where a SARMs cycle makes sense. Literally zero

Agreed.

O0 your stats are shit and you're 22. SARMS are gay as fuck and so is tesa. Your body prob hasn't even peaked natural test levels yet and you wanna suppress your shit for a lame ass SARM stack. Watch some actual decent ped influencers if you gotta jump on something. Todd Lee and vigorous Steve maybe.

 

[cargin]

I’m mainly curious. Ostarine doesn’t help much with gaining muscle mass. Maybe not at all. It seems to help prevent muscle atrophy during caloric deficits. You are already very light with low BF%. Why would you risk damaging your liver when you could just use exogenous testosterone? What are your short and long term training goals?

Based on my anecdotal and clinical research, Ostarine does seem to increase lean body mass, not just prevent atrophy. I think such a rhetoric emerged because of the majority of clinical data regarding MK-2866 being for muscle wasting disease.

"subjects in the 3-mg-dose group gaining a statistically significant (P < 0.001) average of 1.3 kg ± 0.3 (±1 SE) of lean mass compared to placebo"

The selective androgen receptor modulator GTx-024 (enobosarm) improves lean body mass and physical function in healthy elderly men and postmenopausal women: results of a double-blind, placebo-controlled phase II trial - PMC

Cachexia, also known as muscle wasting, is a complex metabolic condition characterized by loss of skeletal muscle and a decline in physical function. Muscle wasting is associated with cancer, sarcopenia, chronic obstructive pulmonary disease, ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

This data was found in healthy volunteers at a low dose of 3mg. I imagine the effects would be much greater at 10-15mg.

The above study also doesn't seem to have had any documented instances of liver injury.

Here's a systematic review of clinical trials and case studies relating to SARM usage.

Systematic Review of Safety of Selective Androgen Receptor Modulators in Healthy Adults: Implications for Recreational Users - PMC

Selective Androgen Receptor Modulators (SARMs) are not FDA approved, and obtaining SARMs for personal use is illegal. Nevertheless, SARM use is increasingly popular amongst recreational athletes. Recent case reports of drug-induced liver injury ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

No trials showed significantly more adverse events than placebo specifically attributed to ostarine/enobosarm. No consistent, serious hepatotoxicity signals over placebo were observed from Ostarine.

As for the case studies, there have been only two case studies total reported to occur from Ostarine use only. Both patients showed full recovery with normalization of labs. Keep in mind this is a review over all-known case-studies regarding SARMs as of 2023.

Based on my research I deemed Ostarine to be within my personal risk profile. As for why not test-only? Well being someone of a younger age, suppression is a larger cause for concern given my higher baseline levels. I am opting for a route that leads to milder suppression with a higher chance of recovery and less side effects.

My goals are limited to recomp in the pursuit of vanity. I want more muscle mass and I want it quicker than lifting naturally. Is it adding undue risk? Absolutely. That's a decision I am making with knowledge of the risk/reward.

 

[BigTomJ]

I'm sure preaching abstinence must work every time lol. I already took feedback on whether or not to take compounds and I've made my decision in that regard, looking for feedback in the areas I listed.

Absolutely any person who knows what they are talking about would tell you the same.

Skip the SARMs.

If anyone told you different they are fools

 

[BamaCrazy]

Based on my anecdotal and clinical research, Ostarine does seem to increase lean body mass, not just prevent atrophy. I think such a rhetoric emerged because of the majority of clinical data regarding MK-2866 being for muscle wasting disease.

"subjects in the 3-mg-dose group gaining a statistically significant (P < 0.001) average of 1.3 kg ± 0.3 (±1 SE) of lean mass compared to placebo"

The selective androgen receptor modulator GTx-024 (enobosarm) improves lean body mass and physical function in healthy elderly men and postmenopausal women: results of a double-blind, placebo-controlled phase II trial - PMC

Cachexia, also known as muscle wasting, is a complex metabolic condition characterized by loss of skeletal muscle and a decline in physical function. Muscle wasting is associated with cancer, sarcopenia, chronic obstructive pulmonary disease, ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

This data was found in healthy volunteers at a low dose of 3mg. I imagine the effects would be much greater at 10-15mg.

The above study also doesn't seem to have had any documented instances of liver injury.

Here's a systematic review of clinical trials and case studies relating to SARM usage.

Systematic Review of Safety of Selective Androgen Receptor Modulators in Healthy Adults: Implications for Recreational Users - PMC

Selective Androgen Receptor Modulators (SARMs) are not FDA approved, and obtaining SARMs for personal use is illegal. Nevertheless, SARM use is increasingly popular amongst recreational athletes. Recent case reports of drug-induced liver injury ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

No trials showed significantly more adverse events than placebo specifically attributed to ostarine/enobosarm. No consistent, serious hepatotoxicity signals over placebo were observed from Ostarine.

As for the case studies, there have been only two case studies total reported to occur from Ostarine use only. Both patients showed full recovery with normalization of labs. Keep in mind this is a review over all-known case-studies regarding SARMs as of 2023.

Based on my research I deemed Ostarine to be within my personal risk profile. As for why not test-only? Well being someone of a younger age, suppression is a larger cause for concern given my higher baseline levels. I am opting for a route that leads to milder suppression with a higher chance of recovery and less side effects.

My goals are limited to recomp in the pursuit of vanity. I want more muscle mass and I want it quicker than lifting naturally. Is it adding undue risk? Absolutely. That's a decision I am making with knowledge of the risk/reward.

Well, I wouldn’t say there’s no risk of liver damage. Most of those studies used very low doses not the higher doses you plan on taking.

Liver injury associated with the use of selective androgen receptor modulators and post-cycle therapy: Two case reports and literature review - PMC

Muscle growth promoters are being developed for the treatment of disease-induced loss of muscle mass. Ligandrol and ostarine are selective androgen receptor modulators (SARMs) with a non-steroidal structure and a presumably more favorable side ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Drug-Induced Liver Injury From Enobosarm (Ostarine), a Selective Androgen Receptor Modulator - PMC

Anabolic steroids are well-known to cause liver injury, which may manifest with jaundice and elevated liver enzymes. Selective androgen receptor modulators (SARMs) have been developed to enhance muscle bulk without the side effects associated with ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Anyway, SARMs are pure shit and not effective at all. But you are 22 so you’ve got it all figured out already. Good luck.

 

[AlexDavis43]

Stats:
22M
5’9”, 161 lbs, ~14.5% BF

Currently known bloodwork:
Total T: 816
Free T: 113.4
TSH: 1.39
IGF-1: 113

Training consistently for 4+ years

Cycle Layout:
* Ostarine (MK-2866): 15mg ED for 8 weeks
* Tesamorelin: 1mg, 6x/week for 12 weeks

Bloodwork:
* Pre-cycle: Total Test, Free Test, LH, E2, Lipids
* Post-cycle (Week 9): Same panel


PCT Plan (depending on suppression)
* Option A: Enclomiphene 6.25mg ED from Week 4–12
*Option B: Standard PCT starting Week 8–12 at same dose

Diet & Training:
* Calories: 2500–2700/day
* Protein: ~180g/day
* Moderate carbs/fats
* Training 4–5x/week, Chest/back/arms/legs split, ~80 min sessions + 15 min daily cardio



Looking for specific feedback on:
* PCT timing (early enclo vs post-cycle)
* Diet/macros for lean mass focus
* Bloodwork
* Advice for or against stacking
* Anything obvious I’m overlooking
* More information I can provide


Would appreciate constructive feedback before I pull the trigger. I've already decided I want to do a SARM cycle so you're welcome to advise me against it but it might be a waste of your time.

You'll make more gains with this:

Enclomiphene 6.25mg ED from Week 4–12


Diet & Training:
* Calories: 2500–2700/day
* Protein: ~180g/day
* Moderate carbs/fats
* Training 4–5x/week, Chest/back/arms/legs split, ~80 min sessions + 15 min daily cardio

than with this:

Cycle Layout:
* Ostarine (MK-2866): 15mg ED for 8 weeks
* Tesamorelin: 1mg, 6x/week for 12 weeks

 

[cargin]

Well, I wouldn’t say there’s no risk of liver damage. Most of those studies used very low doses not the higher doses you plan on taking.

Liver injury associated with the use of selective androgen receptor modulators and post-cycle therapy: Two case reports and literature review - PMC

Muscle growth promoters are being developed for the treatment of disease-induced loss of muscle mass. Ligandrol and ostarine are selective androgen receptor modulators (SARMs) with a non-steroidal structure and a presumably more favorable side ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Drug-Induced Liver Injury From Enobosarm (Ostarine), a Selective Androgen Receptor Modulator - PMC

Anabolic steroids are well-known to cause liver injury, which may manifest with jaundice and elevated liver enzymes. Selective androgen receptor modulators (SARMs) have been developed to enhance muscle bulk without the side effects associated with ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Anyway, SARMs are pure shit and not effective at all. But you are 22 so you’ve got it all figured out already. Good luck.

I'm guessing you did not read the studies you linked nor the studies I linked. In the first study both patients used LGD (One used Ostarine + LGD and the other used LGD alone), LGD has much more common incidence of hepotoxicity and SAEs. The second study you provided is a part of the systematic review I linked and is one of the two total known case studies I mentioned which attribute liver damage to Ostarine. If you still believe Ostarine causes liver damage great enough to account for in my risk analysis I would appreciate studies that are relevant to Ostarine-only use or that I haven't already provided myself.

 

[BamaCrazy]

I'm guessing you did not read the studies you linked nor the studies I linked. In the first study both patients used LGD (One used Ostarine + LGD and the other used LGD alone), LGD has much more common incidence of hepotoxicity and SAEs. The second study you provided is a part of the systematic review I linked and is one of the two total known case studies I mentioned which attribute liver damage to Ostarine. If you still believe Ostarine causes liver damage great enough to account for in my risk analysis I would appreciate studies that are relevant to Ostarine-only use or that I haven't already provided myself.

Minimal risk or high risk of liver damage is really unimportant. What’s important is SARMs are pure shit and ineffective. You are going to waste your time and money and end up 161lbs but with less money.

 

[Slowww]

I'm sure preaching abstinence must work every time lol. I already took feedback on whether or not to take compounds and I've made my decision in that regard, looking for feedback in the areas I listed.

it’s not preaching abstinence you’ve just got an extremely stupid cycle, and stats that look like you are not into any sports. Your recomp doesn’t need gear and ostarine won’t help build appreciable muscle. If you were an endurance athlete who wanted better work capacity or something it would make more sense but not whatever you’re doing.

 

[AlexDavis43]

Minimal risk or high risk of liver damage is really unimportant. What’s important is SARMs are pure shit and ineffective. You are going to waste your time and money and end up 161lbs but with less money.

Hey @cargin, this is not bad advice or meant to be insulting. SARMs are crap.

Unless spending money on supps helps motivate you to train harder, diet better, be more mindful of sleep habits, etc., etc. Then by all means...

 

[rxzed]

I'm guessing you did not read the studies you linked nor the studies I linked. In the first study both patients used LGD (One used Ostarine + LGD and the other used LGD alone), LGD has much more common incidence of hepotoxicity and SAEs. The second study you provided is a part of the systematic review I linked and is one of the two total known case studies I mentioned which attribute liver damage to Ostarine. If you still believe Ostarine causes liver damage great enough to account for in my risk analysis I would appreciate studies that are relevant to Ostarine-only use or that I haven't already provided myself.

SARMs have a much better risk profile when compared to steroids. As such, they are also much less effective. They still suppress your HPTA and present androgenic side effects, albeit at a lower rate and severity.

SARMs are used by people who are ignorant or are afraid of needles. You are needlessly complicating your life for little gain. My 0.02, if you are contemplating using SARMs, stay natural.

 

[cargin]

it’s not preaching abstinence you’ve just got an extremely stupid cycle, and stats that look like you are not into any sports. Your recomp doesn’t need gear and ostarine won’t help build appreciable muscle. If you were an endurance athlete who wanted better work capacity or something it would make more sense but not whatever you’re doing.

I understand what you're saying and I'll keep researching and seeing how I can tweak the cycle to balance risk/reward. But the original reply "No peds for you." absolutely was preaching abstinence.

 

[cargin]

Minimal risk or high risk of liver damage is really unimportant. What’s important is SARMs are pure shit and ineffective. You are going to waste your time and money and end up 161lbs but with less money.

I've done some more thinking and read some of the replies and I'm hearing a similar thing yet I still feel so torn about Ostarine in this case because the literature seems to show that it does actually have some effects, and I've heard great things anecdotally. I'm just struggling to see the rational that a cycle with higher risk and higher reward is necessarily better than one with lower risk and lower growth. I really do want to understand, believe me, as I'd absolutely like to maximize my return on risk.

Let's ignore liver toxicity for sake of discussion and imagine it's out of the picture. Do you think on the basis of suppression alone, test only cycle offers better risk/reward ratio than Ostarine-only cycle taking my age into consideration?

 

[Kralteramon]

The thing is. You're probably exploring the boundries of the risk that you're willing to take with compounds that build muscle. If you wanted to be really effective with peds you wouldn't bother with SARMs. Any oral cycle will just give you short term gains and leave you with a deflated feeling after. You'll think that next time you need to take more or something else to grow bigger. This whole cadence will just set you up for a drug centric view on muscle growth and will distract from what's much more important such as nutrition,sleep stress management etc. I've waited with using PEDs until age 35 because there was just too much progression still to be made without them. This is also absoluty the case with your stats. I wouldn't touch PEDs for the coming 5 years if i were you and nail all the basics first. If you don't have the discipline for it, you'll end up a drug user not a strength athlete that uses PEDs to push past plateaus to get the maximum out of his efforts. On the other side, if you were hell bent on becoming a body builder as fast as possible, you wouldn't be contemplating a SARM cycle. Choose your destiny.

 

[Mongo966]

Let's ignore liver toxicity for sake of discussion and imagine it's out of the picture. Do you think on the basis of suppression alone, test only cycle offers better risk/reward ratio than Ostarine-only cycle taking my age into consideration?

Test only is pretty much always going to offer better risk:reward than other drugs. You already have it in your system right now. You're just increasing it and you'll most likely be able to fully recover your natural production afterwards. Ostarine won't suppress you as quickly but you also aren't going to gain fuck all on it compared to test. Just my opinion. I started my journey with ostarine only, btw.

 

[BabaJagga]

are you scared of needles?

 

[cargin]

are you scared of needles?

My initial cycle plan suggested Tesamorelin so not sure how that would work if I was scared of needles lol. I'm just coming from a position where I don't want crazy gains, I just want to recomp stubborn fat areas without losing too much muscle. I have already decided I am taking Ostarine, and I said as much in my initial post. At this point telling me to abstain is not harm reduction. If you do have any advice on harm reduction given the fact that I'll be taking Ostarine, I welcome it.