First Cycles Old School vs. New School - Are they Better Now?

[fooba]

And what is the right first time dose? Is it the same for the 180lbs 6'24 skinny guy and the stocky 5'2" 175lbs? How they aromatize on that dosage?

There are alot of variables one have to take into consideration.

Starting lowish and titrating up every couple of weeks after the initial period of stabilization is not such a bad idea, certainly not worse than the usual 500mg test cookie cutter advice given left and right

the skinny guy shouldnt even be on gear and should be eating more food instead.

most people have test levels of at least 4x their dosage. with 500mg, this puts them at 2000(2x the upper end of reference range), so they will aromatize a decent amount. the reason why 500mg is "cookie cutter" is because almost everyone will aromatize a good amount at that dose, and will learn to manage e2 for their future cycles. yes there are outliers who have 10x multipliers and 500mg will put their test levels at 5000, and some who respond poorly and have test levels 3x their dose. this is why bloodwork is needed.

titrating other compounds may have its uses, (primo, mast) to assess if you will bald. but titrating test can cause acne from the unstable levels week to week.

 

[grey]

the skinny guy shouldnt even be on gear and should be eating more food instead.

While I couldn't agree more, the first cycle folks posting threads never want to hear it.

This is likely also how people are appealing to them with this upramp titrating shit.

Fucking around with doses and then whining afterwards that the dosing wasn't right is way more attractive than admitting that they were never in PED use case ranges in the first place. The hormones were never their sticking point because their diet was fucked and their training wasn't on point either.

Having mental scapegoats is key element in a cycle for a lot of these dudes.

 

[Blange89]

Main thing i think of old vs new cycles is how to run the orals. Using them as a kickstart vs peaking at the end.

 

[strongfam213]

I would say the new school here isn't too far off from what I've seen, although I would say it's more like:

Option 1 (not the best option): Low dose Anavar only for 4-8 weeks. Why. Recognizing that anavar is not going to crash your test nearly as fast as people say it will and you're going to bounce back pretty quickly. And you won't crash your E2 that fast with no AI. But not pushing it past 7-8 weeks. Super short ester let's you jump off quickly if you hate it, get crazy sides, etc. And NOT dbol which will shut you down much harder.

Option 2 (the MUCH better option):

120-300mg test/week
150-300mg mast or primo

Typically titrate up the first few weeks and then hold it steady. Most would get to 200T 200M. Get bloods done after 6-8 weeks.

Find the combination that allows E2 to be moderately elevated with no sides, and no crashing. You learn your body. If you're a high aromatizer, or low one. You learn if mast has a large AI effect, or not, etc.

If E2 is too high, lower the test a tad or raise the mast a tad. I can be more specific but keeping it short for brevity.

And it depends if they want to go to TRT after or PCT. And no tapering off as said above. The long ester does that naturally.

New school asks that the person not follow BS advise on Reddit and recognizing that controlling E2 is more important than anything.

 

[narta]

most people have test levels of at least 4x their dosage. with 500mg, this puts them at 2000(2x the upper end of reference range), so they will aromatize a decent amount. the reason why 500mg is "cookie cutter" is because almost everyone will aromatize a good amount at that dose, and will learn to manage e2 for their future cycles. yes there are outliers who have 10x multipliers and 500mg will put their test levels at 5000, and some who respond poorly and have test levels 3x their dose. this is why bloodwork is needed

Never said that bloodwork shouldn't be considered. But I disagrees with the cookie cutter shit, it just leads to uping the dosages and adding compounds WAY TOO EARLY down the road.
The all too familiar post of "First cycle was 500mg test E now I am gonna to run 750mg Test and 300mg deca"

No shithead, you could still grow in 500mg test if your first cycle was 350mg instead of 500mg.

And managing their e2? Why all the do I need an AI posts in guys running their 3rd or 4th cycle?

Anyway, I see ped usage as a long term commitment and not a spontaneous decision that are better utilized when it's a gradual slow process.

After decades of usage on and off and the last 7 years on trt, I still make progress using half of what I was using in my 20s. Consistency is the bigger factor in the successful outcome in the game not PEDs.

PEDs is just another tool in the toolbox.

 

[Gigantic]

Where is the new cycle from? TikTok? Never in my life have I heard about such a bullshit cycle.

I’ve seen Rich Piana’s cycle being very similar to this so-called “new” dose, BUT he took MUCH higher amounts.

Still, this is like some inexperienced person took Rich Piana’s cycle and downgraded it for themselves. It doesn’t make sense anyway.

 

[Gigantic]

the skinny guy shouldnt even be on gear and should be eating more food instead.

most people have test levels of at least 4x their dosage. with 500mg, this puts them at 2000(2x the upper end of reference range), so they will aromatize a decent amount. the reason why 500mg is "cookie cutter" is because almost everyone will aromatize a good amount at that dose, and will learn to manage e2 for their future cycles. yes there are outliers who have 10x multipliers and 500mg will put their test levels at 5000, and some who respond poorly and have test levels 3x their dose. this is why bloodwork is needed.

titrating other compounds may have its uses, (primo, mast) to assess if you will bald. but titrating test can cause acne from the unstable levels week to week.

QSC 500mg took me to 3700 ng/dL. I had 134+ estrogen and never felt better in my life.

 

[mindgame1516]

I think new school first cycle is
Test 1g
Tren 500 mg
Deca 500
+\- EQ 600
Then never come off the test

yeah i wpuld say a new school cycle would be exactly that but just throw in hgh and dbol on top. i mean its more nee school idiots

 

[Big_paul]

Old school first cycle

Week 1-12 500mg Test E/Wk

Week 1-4 50 mg Dianabol ED

Week 1-12 .25mg Adex ED

Worked for me. Going off dbol was a drag.

This was my 2nd cycle. Going off dbol always sucked.

 

[Country Club Hero]

I was surprised to read both of those as first cycles. I can tell you exactly what was the gold standard first cycle when I started between 15 years ago until at least a decade ago and that was this:
— Testosterone enanthate or cypionate at 500mg for 12 weeks.

And I still think that’s the best way to do it. Moderate but solid dose. One compound so you learn how you directly respond to testosterone.

I still believe in adding one compound at a time per cycle for the same reason. I was actually conservative my first several years on hormones. Hell, my first 3 cycles were test only. Now for the last several years on blast I hardly ever go above 250mg of test because it bores me and makes me thick and blocky with an uncontrollable appetite. But I learned that through experimentation.

But if I had to pick a winner between your new and old first cycle it’s definitely the old school one. The 2nd one is basically TRT+ for many. What’s the point of even calling it a cycle?

 

[Infidel141]

Maybe you should just dose yourself with 50mg test c once a week

 

[ovrdooze]

first cycles are oral 7/10 times. and for that i think turinabol tapering up to 40mg run for 6-8 weeks is best

 

[bornSkinny]

first cycles are oral 7/10 times. and for that i think turinabol tapering up to 40mg run for 6-8 weeks is best

Interesting you like tbol. I also like tbol. I think you’ll find most people do not.
What makes you think 70% of first cycles are orals? Where did that statistic come from?

 

[ovrdooze]

Interesting you like tbol. I also like tbol. I think you’ll find most people do not.
What makes you think 70% of first cycles are orals? Where did that statistic come from?

just the top of my head tbh and from people ive talked to about this, so dont take it seriously
i think most people try it first when they are young and more likely do not want to pin.
and my personal opinion is unless you can get pharma grade injectable its generally a safer bet to go with orals first
tbol is fairly cheap and accessible, not that harsh and doesnt bloat you up like dbol

 

[EmYYY]

first cycles are oral 7/10 times. and for that i think turinabol tapering up to 40mg run for 6-8 weeks is best

first retarded* cycles are oral 7/10 times maybe

 

[ant123]

Old school first cycle

Week 1-12 500mg Test E/Wk

Week 1-4 50 mg Dianabol ED

Week 1-12 .25mg Adex ED

This was literally my first cycle. I would definitely do it differently if I could go back. I didn’t get bad sides or anything, but the dbol is completely unnecessary. This is how you blow up 30+lbs in the first 4-5 weeks and then have no further gains the rest of the cycle. You might as well wave a flag with “look at me, I’m on steroids” because you gain so much so fast it is obvious. It is better to just do the test and get slow and steady gains through the end of the cycle. I’d actually recommend just doing 300mg test a week for your first cycle. Then 400mg next cycle and then 500mg. I’ve read a lot of examples of people doing this and having solid gains and easy PCT. First time you drink beer you don’t need to pound a 12 pack. Same thing here.

 

[RiceNKimchi]

Kickstart oral are just bad for health. We have learned alot through bloodtesting. Methylated orals wreck your system, lipids, liver values. Its just not healthy to be on extended amounts of time. Keep them at the end.

I might titrate an oral since it kicks in faster. Say I was taking oral superdrol. I might do 1 or 2 weeks 10 mg then go to 20. I wouldn't do the same with injectables that take time, a week plus, to saturate.

 

[readalot]

most people have test levels of at least 4x their dosage. with 500mg, this puts them at 2000(2x the upper end of reference range), so they will aromatize a decent amount. the reason why 500mg is "cookie cutter" is because almost everyone will aromatize a good amount at that dose, and will learn to manage e2 for their future cycles. yes there are outliers who have 10x multipliers and 500mg will put their test levels at 5000, and some who respond poorly and have test levels 3x their dose. this is why bloodwork is needed.

Nice summary. Props.

Tool to Assess your TT dose response --Percentile Curves

Continuing the dose response thread over here. This would be a great place to crowdsource data. https://forums.t-nation.com/t/tool-to-assess-your-tt-dose-response-percentile-curves/277628 https://thinksteroids.com/community/threads/readalot-aka-tareload-introduction.134419973/post-3171563 I...

thinksteroids.com

 

[AlexDavis43]

not necessarily. ester weights are a thing. dont know the exact difference, but it may be closer than you think

Someone recently posted a chart showing the exact differences (I can't find the link)

For example, "for the same number of testosterone molecules that you'd get with 200 mg test cypionate, you'd need this many mg of test prop"

 

[lukiss96]

Testosterone with dbol (yes kickstart 4 weeks) my first and best cycle, cuz first cycle brings about 80% of gains if done properly. Second and third are decent and then it's a grind for not so much more, unless you're willing to be walking pharma.