Flaccid small & Extremely soft

[Chris.N]

This post has nothing to do regarding your previous statements of how Clomid & Nolvadex lower estrogen in the body. If you want to lower estrogen in the body, you use aromatase inhibitors, not SERMs. This is common knowledge.

You are correct that AI's would lower estrogen in the body but they are only recommended to use during a AAS to prevent the steroids from being converted to estrogen. In Sade's situation, he is no longer using AAS therefore AI's are not recommend to help treat his high estrogen because of the increased risk of driving estrogen levels too low, with deleterious consequences for the lipid profile, calcium deposition, libido, etc.

Therefore Clomid and Nolvadex would probably be the best bet to helping him promote healthy Estrogen and T levels. Don't be a sore loser about this bro. Plus these is no such thing as common knowledge in dealing with hormones.

29, 30 next month and suffered problems since coming off steroids. I have elevated levels of both progesterone and estrogen. I've recently knocked my progesterone down from 12.0 to 3.2. The range for women is 0.7 - 4.3. My estrogen level is 1927 and the range is 44 - 156. My doc has now referred me to an endo to find out what is causing the elevation of these female hormones in my body. They're overpowering my Testosterone.

 

[OhNoYo]

And how would these two drugs lower estrogen in the body since their mechanism of action (MOA) is being a SERM?

Clomid and Nolvadex are both anti-estrogens belonging to the same group of triphenylethylene compounds. They are structurally related and specifically classified as selective estrogen receptor modulators (SERMs) with mixed agonistic and antagonistic properties. This means that in certain tissues they can block the effects of estrogen, by altering the binding capacity of the receptor, while in others they can act as actual estrogens, activating the receptor. In men, both of these drugs act as anti-estrogens in their capacity to oppose the negative feedback of estrogens on the hypothalamus and stimulate the heightened release of GnRH (Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone). lh - leutenizing hormone - output by the pituitary will be increased as a result, which in turn can increase the level of testosterone by the testes

Ur point being? How do they LOWER estrogen in the body, Sir? I will answer that for you in being that they do NOT b/c BOTH Clomid & Nolvadex have been shown to raise testosterone which would cause an increase in estrogen via aromatization. Stating that they r SERMs meaning they act upon the estrogen receptor (ER) in tissues by acting as an agonist in some tissues while in others acting as an agonist has nothing to do with the actual amount of estrogen in the body. If you want to understand this in more detail I will be more than happy to explain this to u, Sir.

LoL. Are you serious ?? Estrogen levels are actually at their highest levels straight after finishing an anabolic steroid cycle. The body closes down the endogenous production of testosterone and this is due to the huge amounts of exogenous testosterone that are being injected. Hence the PCT. You use Nolvadex and Clomid after steroid cycles as part of PCT which comprises of an excess of compounds to trigger the body's natural capacity in producing testosterone and to reduce the amount of circulating estrogen which reaches very high levels after having finished an anabolic steroid cycle that has forced natural testosterone to such low levels that they just can't compete with feedback mechanisms.


The body is able to deal with this excess of testosterone by increasing the estrogen level causing homeostasis. Once the high level of testosterone is eliminated, it is the Nolvadex and Clomid that will deal with the excess of estrogen.

This post has nothing to do regarding your previous statements of how Clomid & Nolvadex lower estrogen in the body. If you want to lower estrogen in the body, you use aromatase inhibitors, not SERMs. This is common knowledge.

You are correct that AI's would lower estrogen in the body but they are only recommended to use during a AAS to prevent the steroids from being converted to estrogen. In Sade's situation, he is no longer using AAS therefore AI's are not recommend to help treat his high estrogen because of the increased risk of driving estrogen levels too low, with deleterious consequences for the lipid profile, calcium deposition, libido, etc.

Therefore Clomid and Nolvadex would probably be the best bet to helping him promote healthy Estrogen and T levels. Don't be a sore loser about this bro. Plus these is no such thing as common knowledge in dealing with hormones.

A sore loser about what? Read ALL of the previous statements/comments both of us have posted provided above and you will clearly see that the OP comments were NEVER put in any of my statements pertaining to what he SHOULD or should NOT do. My statements were very general and involved correcting you on stating how Clomid & Nolavdex lower estrogen in the body, which they do NOT. If you understand basic pharmacology then this is common knowledge because they are SERMs. SERMS act upon estrogen receptors (ER) in the body and in some tissues they act as an agonist and in some tissues they act as an antagonist. This action in the body will NOT cause lower estrogen in the body since circulating estrogen will still be floating around in the body. So, stating that Clomid & Nolvadex lowers estrogen in the body is incorrect and misinformation. Clomid and Nolvadex can both positively and negatively influence what your natural estrogen does in the body since it binds to various tissues as an agonist/antagonist stronger than estrogen itself, however. If this is what you wanted to say instead of lowering estrogen, then you should have said it, Sir, instead of saying Clomid & Nolvadex lower estrogen in the body. To conclude this b/c I'm tired of posting this nonsense and trying to debate what I know is right to you, Clomid & Nolvadex do not lower circulating estrogen in the body, case closed.

 

[Chris.N]

A sore loser about what? Read ALL of the previous statements/comments both of us have posted provided above and you will clearly see that the OP comments were NEVER put in any of my statements pertaining to what he SHOULD or should NOT do. My statements were very general and involved correcting you on stating how Clomid & Nolavdex lower estrogen in the body, which they do NOT. If you understand basic pharmacology then this is common knowledge because they are SERMs. SERMS act upon estrogen receptors (ER) in the body and in some tissues they act as an agonist and in some tissues they act as an antagonist. This action in the body will NOT cause lower estrogen in the body since circulating estrogen will still be floating around in the body. So, stating that Clomid & Nolvadex lowers estrogen in the body is incorrect and misinformation. Clomid and Nolvadex can both positively and negatively influence what your natural estrogen does in the body since it binds to various tissues as an agonist/antagonist stronger than estrogen itself, however. If this is what you wanted to say instead of lowering estrogen, then you should have said it, Sir, instead of saying Clomid & Nolvadex lower estrogen in the body. To conclude this b/c I'm tired of posting this nonsense and trying to debate what I know is right to you, Clomid & Nolvadex do not lower circulating estrogen in the body, case closed.

Clomiphene acts by inhibiting the action of estrogen on the pituitary. It binds to estrogen receptors and stays bound for long periods of time. This prevents normal receptor recycling and causes an effective reduction in hypothalamic estrogen receptor number. As a result, the body perceives a low level of estrogen. Since estrogen can no longer effectively exert negative feedback on the hypothalamus, GnRH secretion becomes more pulsatile, which results in increased pituitary gonadotropin (FSH, LH). Hence the increase in Testosterone. So for example if you have rising estrogen levels and low T levels Clomid/Nolvadex will trick the body into think that estrogen levels are low and increase gonadotropin production.

While using AAS. What do you think Gyno is caused by? It is when estrogen binds to the male breast tissue. Nolvadex prevents this because it competes for the receptor and binds itself as a synthetic estrogen. What happens when the Nolvadex wears off ? Where did the estrogen go and why isn't the estrogen binding itself immediately after the SERM wears off ?!?!?

Hmmmm so why do a 45 day PCT of Clomid/Nolvadex if all you are doing is masking the effects of estrogen instead of allowing the body to regulate and balance estrogen/testosterone levels. It would be pointless in your definition cause once you stop the Nolva/Clomid regime there is nothing stopping the estrogen from slipping through and binding itself. Think about it.

Nolva/Clomid give your body the time to balance, they may not synethically reduce estrogen but it does help the body bring it's levels to where they should be. Including High Estrogen and Low T.

 

[Chris.N]

I done discussing this with you. We are here to help Sade. Thanks for your input though.

 

[musulman]

Firstly ohnoyo, knows what he is talking about.

OP does not need to go on clomid or nolvadex because they will not lower his estradiol levels. They may even raise them.

You are confusing clomid and nolvadex with arimidex, which lowers estradiol levels.

Stop googling for clomid and nolvadex information and then try to present it as if you are knowledgeable and correct in this instance, you are not.

Case closed.

.

 

[musulman]

Also, it is very common that once you reach 25 years in male that there will be a significant decrease in T levels, hence balding, fatigue, joint pain etc. It is all part of getting old. BUT, that doesn't mean you should not get yourself checked out.

That is a load of bullshit.

Just shut up and read more, before you start passing on misinformation and confusing people.

 

[Chris.N]

Firstly ohnoyo, knows what he is talking about.

OP does not need to go on clomid or nolvadex because they will not lower his estradiol levels. They may even raise them.

You are confusing clomid and nolvadex with arimidex, which lowers estradiol levels.

Stop googling for clomid and nolvadex information and then try to present it as if you are knowledgeable and correct in this instance, you are not.

Case closed.

.

Where does all the estrogen go after a AAS cycle then ? What is the point of using Nolvadex and Clomid for PCT then ?? There would be no point if it could not regulate the high estrogen that is left behind. Sorry bro, clomid and nolva is the most common PCT and estrogen levels seems to drop down to normal after a PCT regime.

 

[musulman]

Back before we had PCT, people got along just fine. PCT is just a way to keep as many of the gains. In some cases it is not even needed imo.

The high estradiol - the body self regulates and estradiol goes down with time. In time the body tries to revert back to what it was like. Sometimes it does not. That does not mean clomid is needed, cos clomid dos not lower estradiol.

This is obvious. why are you trying to challenge this.

 

[Chris.N]

Also, it is very common that once you reach 25 years in male that there will be a significant decrease in T levels, hence balding, fatigue, joint pain etc. It is all part of getting old. BUT, that doesn't mean you should not get yourself checked out.

That is a load of bullshit.

Just shut up and read more, before you start passing on misinformation and confusing people.

Misinformation ???????? Why don't you give some good helping information here instead of trashing on everybody. Do your homework before you start discrediting people.

Male Hypogonadism

© 1998-2010 Mayo Foundation for Medical Education and Research (MFMER). All rights reserved. A single copy of these materials may be reprinted for noncommercial personal use only. "Mayo," "Mayo Clinic," "MayoClinic.com," "EmbodyHealth," "Enhance your life," and the triple-shield Mayo Clinic logo are trademarks of Mayo Foundation for Medical Education and Research.

Male hypogonadism is a condition in which the body doesn't produce enough of the hormone testosterone — the hormone that plays a key role in masculine growth and development during puberty.

You may be born with male hypogonadism, or it can develop later in life from injury or infection. The effects — and what you can do about them — depend on the cause and at what point in your life male hypogonadism occurs. Some types of male hypogonadism can be treated with testosterone replacement therapy.

Testosterone levels in males become lower from age 20-25. Most males will reach their testosterone levels peak at age 18-20 . While male menopause may begin at age 40 to 55.

Hypogonadism can occur during fetal development, puberty or adulthood. Depending on when it develops, the signs and symptoms differ.

Fetal development
If the body doesn't produce enough testosterone during fetal development, the result may be impaired growth of the external sex organs. Depending on when it develops, and how much testosterone is present, a child who is genetically male may be born with:

* Female genitals
* Ambiguous genitals — genitals that are neither clearly male nor clearly female
* Underdeveloped male genitals

Puberty
During puberty, male hypogonadism may slow growth and affect development. It can cause:

* Decreased development of muscle mass
* Lack of deepening of the voice
* Impaired growth of body hair
* Impaired growth of the penis and testicles
* Excessive growth of the arms and legs in relation to the trunk of the body
* Development of breast tissue (gynecomastia)

Adulthood
In adult males, hypogonadism may alter certain masculine physical characteristics and impair normal reproductive function. Signs and symptoms may include:

* Erectile dysfunction
* Infertility
* Decrease in beard and body hair growth
* Decrease in muscle mass
* Development of breast tissue (gynecomastia)
* Loss of bone mass (osteoporosis)

Hypogonadism can also cause mental and emotional changes. As testosterone decreases, some men may experience symptoms similar to those of menopause in women. These may include:

* Fatigue
* Decreased sex drive
* Difficulty concentrating
* Hot flashes

When to see a doctor
See a doctor if you have any symptoms of male hypogonadism. Establishing the cause of hypogonadism is an important first step to getting appropriate treatment

# Snyder PJ. Causes of primary of hypogonadism in males. UpToDate Inc.. Accessed Sept. 19, 2008.
# ?Snyder PJ. Causes of secondary hypogonadism in males. UpToDate Inc.. Accessed Sept. 19, 2008.
# Snyder PJ. Clinical features and diagnosis of male hypogonadism. UpToDate Inc.. Accessed Sept. 17, 2008.
# Medical guidelines for clinical practice for the evaluation and treatment of hypogonadism in adult male patients - 2002 update. Endocrine Practice. 2002; 8(6):440-56
# Swerdloff RS, et al. The testis and male sexual function. In: Goldman L. Cecil Medicine. 23rd ed. Philadelphia, Pa.: Saunders Elsevier; 2007. MD Consult -- Start Session Cookie Error. Accessed Sept. 21, 2008.
# Snyder PJ. Testosterone treatment of male hypogonadism. UpToDate Inc.. Accessed Sept. 17, 2008.
# Dietary Reference Intakes: Elements. Institute of Medicine. http://www.iom.edu/Object.File/Master/54/411/DRIs.Vitamins.pdf. Accessed Sept. 21, 2008.
# Dietary Reference Intakes: Vitamins. Institute of Medicine. http://www.iom.edu/Object.File/Master/54/395/DRIs.Elements.pdf. Accessed Sept. 21, 2008.

 

[Chris.N]

Also, it is very common that once you reach 25 years in male that there will be a significant decrease in T levels, hence balding, fatigue, joint pain etc. It is all part of getting old. BUT, that doesn't mean you should not get yourself checked out.

That is a load of bullshit.

Just shut up and read more, before you start passing on misinformation and confusing people.

Back before we had PCT, people got along just fine. PCT is just a way to keep as many of the gains. In some cases it is not even needed imo.

The high estradiol - the body self regulates and estradiol goes down with time. In time the body tries to revert back to what it was like. Sometimes it does not. That does not mean clomid is needed, cos clomid dos not lower estradiol.

This is obvious. why are you trying to challenge this.

LOL LOL LOL !!!!! Did you just say PCT is not needed. Wow. Wow. Have you even used AAS ??

PCT is CRUCIAL if you want to avoid future problems and Gyno.

Plus you still haven't answer my question. What is stopping estrogen from bind to your breast tissue and forming Gyno without a SERM ??

Therefore your estrogen has been suppressed while the body levels. It mimics Estrogen while the body lowers the real estrogen.

Just stop bro.

 

[musulman]

Testosterone levels actually peak at around 25 years of age. That is when the male body stops growing. The tetsosterone levels keep getting higher until the body fully develops.
Libido may be higher at 18 - 19, so i think people confuse libido with test levels, but that does not actually mean test levels are higher. If you got it from Mayo clinci then it must be true right. You internet intellectuals with google at your finger tips and knowing how to cut and paste amuse and frustrate me.

PCT is a realtively recent phenomenon discovered by Dan Duchaine in the 90s. Steroids were used from the 50s, 60s, 70s and til 80s and PCT was never used cos it had not been discovered. Good old grimek used as did many at Hoffmans the york barbell club. They was no PCT and there were not many problems either. These days people think there must be PCT or they will lose everything. PCT is good to keep the maximal gains but to say it is absolutely necessary to prevent future problems is scaremongering. Most those people in the past did okay. Gyno really should not be a problem if you use sensible doages. Regarding the PCT and future problems and gyno....Arnie did okay as did sergio olivia, franco colombo....you see where i am going with this.

I know many steroid users today that dont do PCT, yet are doing okay, they take simple gear likle 6 - 12 dianabol a day for 8 weeks and thats it. Then they taper it down and come off. They have done very well, used like this for years and won world championships. Even now in old age they dont seem to show problems. Its the luck of the draw, you could be the one that the steroids affect badly, for that reason alone its not worth the risk.

However PCT does seem like a good bet to mainain gains, and recover faster, however there has not yet been much longterm use for this purpose, it could be many problems pop up which get linked to PCT use of clomid and nolvadex, we just dont know cos it is all relatively new. However everybody speaks like it is gospel. It could be, it seems to be, but we dont know long term effects, however you can do okay without it. Noone can deny that as the past is filled by steroid users who never used PCT.

For the last time, Clomid and Nolvadex add to the estrogen load in the body. They do not lower estrogen. Your body in time usually recaliberates and lowers the estrogen if you do nothing. You dont usually need to take anything to bring down estrogen. Just give it time. You certainly should not be taking clomid ior nolvadex. Just give this up and quit with the ego and trying to prove youre right i can tell you are immature, most likely a kid of 18 - 19 or somehwere around that mark in terms of mental maturity. plus you are thick. A pure dumbass.

I hope thats been education for you kid, now quit using google so much and trying to appear smart. Also dont argue for arguments sake and keep that little kiddie ego of yours in check.


.

 

[Chris.N]

Testosterone levels actually peak at around 25 years of age. That is when the male body stops growing. The tetsosterone levels keep getting higher until the body fully develops.
Libido may be higher at 18 - 19, so i think people confuse libido with test levels, but that does not actually mean test levels are higher. If you got it from Mayo clinci then it must be true right. You internet intellectuals with google at your finger tips and knowing how to cut and paste amuse and frustrate me.

PCT is a realtively recent phenomenon discovered by Dan Duchaine in the 90s. Steroids were used from the 50s, 60s, 70s and til 80s and PCT was never used cos it had not been discovered. Good old grimek used as did many at Hoffmans the york barbell club. They was no PCT and there were not many problems either. These days people think there must be PCT or they will lose everything. PCT is good to keep the maximal gains but to say it is absolutely necessary to prevent future problems is scaremongering. Most those people in the past did okay. Gyno really should not be a problem if you use sensible doages. Regarding the PCT and future problems and gyno....Arnie did okay as did sergio olivia, franco colombo....you see where i am going with this.

I know many steroid users today that dont do PCT, yet are doing okay, they take simple gear likle 6 - 12 dianabol a day for 8 weeks and thats it. Then they taper it down and come off. They have done very well, used like this for years and won world championships. Even now in old age they dont seem to show problems. Its the luck of the draw, you could be the one that the steroids affect badly, for that reason alone its not worth the risk.

However PCT does seem like a good bet to mainain gains, and recover faster, however there has not yet been much longterm use for this purpose, it could be many problems pop up which get linked to PCT use of clomid and nolvadex, we just dont know cos it is all relatively new. However everybody speaks like it is gospel. It could be, it seems to be, but we dont know long term effects, however you can do okay without it. Noone can deny that as the past is filled by steroid users who never used PCT.

For the last time, Clomid and Nolvadex add to the estrogen load in the body. They do not lower estrogen. Your body in time usually recaliberates and lowers the estrogen if you do nothing. You dont usually need to take anything to bring down estrogen. Just give it time. You certainly should not be taking clomid ior nolvadex. Just give this up and quit with the ego and trying to prove youre right i can tell you are immature, most likely a kid of 18 - 19 or somehwere around that mark in terms of mental maturity. plus you are thick. A pure dumbass.

I hope thats been education for you kid, now quit using google so much and trying to appear smart. Also dont argue for arguments sake and keep that little kiddie ego of yours in check.


.

you dont have any proof, just theories. I definitely trust mayo clinic over you. I can tell you are not familiar with AAS or even taken them yourself. So please stop acting like you know what you are talking about. I am here to help people and help my health conditions. So if you want to philosophy then go to another forum or Myspace or something. Dr. Scally would definitely agree with me that Clomid and Nolvadex are of good use to restoring HPTA and balance to the hormones. I don't have time to listen to your opinions and correct you thinking. Thanks for expressing them though.

 

[musulman]

Dr. Scally would definitely agree with me that Clomid and Nolvadex are of good use to restoring HPTA and balance to the hormones.

You cant wriggle out of it so fast. Noone is denying that SERMs dont reset your HPTA or boost test levels. What you stated that me and ohnoyo took exception to cos it is pure misinfomration, is that serms lower estradiol levels.

Sade has test levels in the 700 range. He does not need a restart like you recommended. He only has problems with estradiol. Recommending clomid or Nolvadex to him is ignorance and pure irresponsibility, you should not offer advice if you are an internet guru. like yourself, especially one that cant understand that serrms do not lower estradiol levels. in the body.

I suspect just cos serms solved your problems and raised your TT to 650, you are now shouting from rooftops thinking serms will solve everyones problems. Yopu recomend clomid to eberyone for everything. LOl!, its a natural process, but in time you will realise that clomid is not the answer to evryones problems.

 

[musulman]

OH BTW, continously giving me a bad post rating for diagreeing and correcting you, does not mean anything to me, its not like i am going to lose sleep over it.

 

[OhNoYo]

Dr. Scally would definitely agree with me that Clomid and Nolvadex are of good use to restoring HPTA and balance to the hormones.

You cant wriggle out of it so fast. Noone is denying that SERMs dont reset your HPTA or boost test levels. What you stated that me and ohnoyo took exception to cos it is pure misinfomration, is that serms lower estradiol levels.

Sade has test levels in the 700 range. He does not need a restart like you recommended. He only has problems with estradiol. Recommending clomid or Nolvadex to him is ignorance and pure irresponsibility, you should not offer advice if you are an internet guru. like yourself, especially one that cant understand that serrms do not lower estradiol levels. in the body.

I suspect just cos serms solved your problems and raised your TT to 650, you are now shouting from rooftops thinking serms will solve everyones problems. Yopu recomend clomid to eberyone for everything. LOl!, its a natural process, but in time you will realise that clomid is not the answer to evryones problems.

I know. Its like Chris.N thinks copies and pastes from various websites are the KNOW ALL AND SAY ALL when OVER HALF of the things he copies and pastes have nothing to do with the point at hand. The mechanism of action (MOA) of Clomid & Nolvadex does NOT lower estrogen, period. Idk y he has to argue/debate this by stating that well, uh, it can after a cycle when you stop taking aromatizable AAS and then the Clomid & Nolvadex will help you restart your HPTA which balance out ur sex steroid hormones in a normal ratio. This doesn't even make sense to wtf we were speaking of in the first place b/c when you think about it, the excess estrogen will be gone anyway once the aromatizable compounds are stopped and estrogen is metabolized to other metabolites anyway. So actually when you think about it, Clomid & Nolvadex would actually raise it in this instance because it would bring back testosterone production quicker which would cause estrogen to rise as well since estrogen is produced via aromatization. This guy just seems to think he can say things that sound knowledgable and we will take it as sound advice instead of just admiting he was wrong and move on with it. All this nonsense about these ignorant gray area scenarios are a copout on top of trying to not admit that he was wrong in saying SERMs lower estrogen. That doesn't even fucking make sense. SERMs don't change estrogen in the body by altering its composition, inhibit its production, bind to it which causes you to excrete it (I actually don't know any compound that does this), none of this. A SERM is exactly what its abbreviation implies: SELECTIVE ESTROGEN RECEPTOR MODULATOR. If Chris.N would have stated that the outcome of using Clomid & Nolvadex in certain situations may lower estrogen, then that would have been correct. But, stating that Clomid & Nolvadex lower estrogen is NOT correct and could misinform ppl on this forum.

 

[OhNoYo]

Chris.N, I'm tired of trying to get this thru ur head regarding Clomid & Nolvadex so why don't you read the thread below then try and argue ur point with Mr. Bill Roberts himself and see how bad you get ur balls busted, LOL! [)]

https://thinksteroids.com/community/posts/717304

My last comment is in no way meant to be mean or rude and is all in good fun tho, Chris.N!

 

[sade]

My Estro level was 234, before self induced TRT.
(Yes, with levels of 732 I still went on trt, thinking Testosterone would cure me since it's what took it away.I came off last month, I was on clomid for two weeks and then Nolvadex. I had tests and my estrogen was really high. Higher than before trt. Before: 234 - After: 1927, range is 44 - 156. I was also taking something which lowered progesterone at that time, and now I'm thinking either lowering prog, or taking that pill raised my estrogen. Up there, but I had high levels anyway/

 

[musulman]

1927 estardiol level, that is many times more than women. Are you seeing signs of feminisation, female pattern fat, gyno?

That is crazy high estradiol levels. Mine were only 147 or somethwere like that.

 

[sade]

No gyno, but I've got a pot belly. I think it was the serms that caused level of estrogen. My LH was super high but I was on serms then.

 

[OhNoYo]

No gyno, but I've got a pot belly. I think it was the serms that caused level of estrogen. My LH was super high but I was on serms then.

But Chris.N says SERMs lower estrogen so how could you have such high estrogen when you were taking SERMs?! [)]