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Anabolic Steroids
Giant Semaglutide Thread (and other GLP-1 / GIP agonists)
- Thread starter Doodle
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Anyone do PSMF while on GLPs and with good results? I.e loss of bunch of fat fast with preservation of muscle/strength?
I did PSMF once about 10 years ago while natty and without GLPs. Wondering how good it'd be now that I'm enhanced and on Reta...
I did PSMF once about 10 years ago while natty and without GLPs. Wondering how good it'd be now that I'm enhanced and on Reta...
Liter O' Test
Member
just eat normal man. eat a balanced diet and let the medication do the work.
Does anyone know if there's any evidence to support the claims of about the speed of weight loss correlating to loose skin? So many people are willing to die on that hill, and I've yet to see a single piece of evidence, while every anecdotal report seems to be purely connected to genetics.
Just curious as it bugs me that so many people push this nonsense (imo)
@Ghoul
Just curious as it bugs me that so many people push this nonsense (imo)
@Ghoul
Ghoul
Member
There's a tiny difference possible between very rapid, and much slower weight loss. 5%, no more than 10% of the determining factors around how much loose skin develops. Even 10% is not particularly noticeable.
70% is down to age, genetics, total volume of weight loss, and how many times skin has been stretched before. All immutable factors.
Most of the rest comes down to exercise and a diet optimized to prevent muscle mass loss and provide sufficient protein for collagen repair,
Most of the casually observed anecdotal "extra" loose skin that's blamed on the speed of loss is actually the muscle mass that's lost with rapid weight loss when exercise and protein intake aren't managed to prevent that from happening, and skin loses the lean mass scaffolding along with fat.
rHGH can really help with this a lot (and TRT). They both shift weight loss to preferentially be fat, stimulate protein synthesis to maintain muscle. GH also speeds skin remodeling, which is ideal when you're shrinking fast.
Personally I think GLPs and rHGH are the perfect combo when losing a lot of weight. Of course, diet (sufficient protein) and exercise make a big difference for the final result too.
It's important to tell anyone you're suggesting this to that the scale won't move as fast as with a GLP alone. Preserving muscle, adding water, mean the numbers go down more slowly, but the recomposition that's going on means they'll look a lot better instead of just getting smaller and softer with muscle loss.
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Agree, I can't believe people are married to the opposite opinion.
A huge part.
It's the real super stack for weight loss.
Iksrohcic1
New Member
Was on 4mg Reta for two weeks and went up to 6mg this week. Don’t feel the symptoms as bad as I did with 4mg, figured they might be more noticeable when jumping up to 6mg but not quite. My body getting used to it or just a bad vial of Reta?
Ghoul
Member
All GLP class drug effects at a given dose diminish as weight goes down. Then you have to increase dose to restore appetite suppression. If you stay at the same dose, and weight increases, the appetite suppression will return. Think of every dose setting a certain weight on your body's thermostat, and when you're above the setting, appetite suppression pushes you back towards it, and stops once you reach it.
Deadpool99
Member
@Ghoul Do you think adding a second GLP1 to my 15mg reta serves any purpose in terms of appetite suppression?
Or should I rather continue fucking around with cagri and upping my reta possibly.
The thought is that reta is already maxing out the pathways every GLP1 drug, so theoretically tirz is pointless. But that's on paper, in practice is it also true that stacking tirz/sema to my Reta won't do as much?
Or should I rather continue fucking around with cagri and upping my reta possibly.
The thought is that reta is already maxing out the pathways every GLP1 drug, so theoretically tirz is pointless. But that's on paper, in practice is it also true that stacking tirz/sema to my Reta won't do as much?
Ghoul
Member
Given what I recently learned about Glucagon agonism's links to cardiac remodeling (hypertrophy, fibrosis, collagen), and the fact there's a pile of drugs involving glucagon that were killed in development because of this, I'm not comfortable suggesting it be combined with anything. If Reta proves to be the safe exception to all the others, which included dual (Glucagon/GLP) and triple (Glucagon/GLP/Tirz) drugs, then it's specific balance between the three agonists is likely key to that long term safety,
I don't think it's even safe to assume there's a good sized dose "safety margin" above 12mg like there is with old GLPs.
Tirz and Sema don't have this problem. In fact they protect the heart against harmful remodeling, and can even reverse it in some cases.
IMO, if you're looking for strong appetite suppression, switch to Sema. For slow/non responders, Sema is safe all the way up to 7.2mg per Novo Nordisk's extended trials for larger doses than the original limit of 2.4mg, By 7.2mg there were NO non-responders. Everyone lost substantial amounts of weight (of course most people don't even need 2.4mg to get to their goal weight, but we're talking about the small genetic subset of those who don't respond strongly to GLP class drugs).
Iksrohcic1
New Member
Ghoul, I think I’ve read from previous posts this is may be one of the reasons why you don’t take Reta is that right? You’re waiting for final approval? Safety is of upmost importance as well as health. If I choose to go to tirz after Reta how would the dose comparison be? Thanks!
Deadpool99
Member
Def worth noting. However from a pure appetite suppression ur probably right to go with the first 2 and mainly sema.
But for the short term I'm gonna use reta until I finish my supply (6 months on it, 9 months left on supply, maybe less if I titrate dose).
I don't believe the evidence justifies dropping it ASAP assuming that structural heart damage will happen, because there’s no human evidence yet.
But outside of appetite, the main goal of reta for me that I would like form it is it's potentially unique metabolic/fat loss advantages via glucagon agonism. Overall better metabolic health and fat loss
If I had to pick to add smth to reta, would you feel sema would be redundant or in-fact more practical than smth like cagri. Rn I have titrated to 2.5mg cagri within the 3rd week. But after the 2mg I started to feel like it's strong.
But I feel there is likely going to be some desensitization and I'm not sure about the higher doses. I'll continue on it till I won't but was just curious about if sema would be redundant. But ur take on Glucagon agonism's is very interesting, I'll have to research more into it
Ghoul
Member
It's hard to make a direct comparison. but it's roughly 20% higher Tirz dose for approximately equivalency.
So Reta to Tirz:
4mg - 5mg
8mg - 10mg
12mg - 15mg
I started on Sema, on the pharma protocol all the way to 2.4mg max.
Then I switched to Tirz (zepbound) as soon as it was released, for its non-alcoholic fatty liver disease benefits, starting at 7.5mg (didn't feel any appetite suppression at all until 10mg). At 15mg maintainance, I don't feel any effects, which is how it's supposed to work, and just enjoy the great metabolic markers (4.8% AIC on 4iu rHGH, 0.4 HSCRP so basically no systemic inflammation, etc).
I've stayed on Tirz because I just didn't see any compelling reports about Reta that made me think it was worth switching. Also, being on pharma Zepbound, UGL Reta was something of a downgrade. I'm really happy with Tirz, and it's done everything I could want from a GLP.
But also, the safety thing was in the back of my mind. GLP has a 30 year track record of use in various forms, GIP a decade. Glucagon, entirely new. I really don't expect any issues to be honest though, and had it been a game changer, I probably would've switched. At this point though, it's off the table. Just not enough compelling reasons to switch, and the cardiac safety question (which may turn out to be a non-issue, we'll see), seals it for me. IMO the best plan in terms of health is to pick one compound, follow the pharma protocol, reach a stable maintainance dose, and stay there for the long term,
I'm still going to follow the next gen GLPs, which are incorporating myostatin inhibition and IGF agonists to promote muscle growth, and may switch in the future,
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Deadpool99
Member
I also agree with ur decision to stay on tirz. As I previously mentioned one of my regrets is using reta and not using smth as strong as tirz. Reta’s only advantage would be it’s metabolic benefits from its glucagon but I feel like it’s overrated/exaggerated.
Tirz seems to have a way stronger control at BG at lower doses and way stronger appetite. What’s surprising is how much tirz you needed to feel the appetite suppression but I guess ur previous use of Sema, meant you needed a stronger dose to feel similar/stronger effects.
Ofc this is from my perspective, seems like tirz is harder to max out due to reta’s weaker appetite suppression.
But again I am a very bad example to compare as I am a very shitty responder and my sheer will to eat and force food down my throat for my fun, is very bad for anecdotes for the average person to rely on.
Ghoul
Member
I was basically in "Maintenance" with Sema (wegovy). I had reached the expected 20% weight loss at 2.4 and stopped feeling anything from it.
The thing about Tirz, is that one of GIP's main purposes is to counteract the rather brutal sides of GLP only drugs like Sema when you're still in strong appetite suppression. phase. Tirz is much gentler as a result of GIP acting like an anti-nausea compound, while GLP still shuts down psychological food noise.
But when you get accustomed to "appetite suppression" being the Sema hammer of punishing physical discomfort preventing you from eating, Tirz's appetite suppression is a gentle suggestion by comparison, so it was difficult to detect, Besides, at 15mg, there was only another 3-4% weight loss to go before it maxed out anyway, at which point no more suppression either, and you go into maintainance mode
Ghoul
Member
Personally I'd say as many IUs as you can tolerate side effect wise, without driving your IGF too far above the top of the physiological range. IE, not more than 1.3x the upper limit of normal. A "Z-score" (included with IGF blood tests) of 1.5-2 would be perfect,
For most men, that's probably going to be around 4iu, but it's different for everyone, so definately check IGF-1 a month or so after starting rHGH.
GH, not IGF is what drives skin quality so you're trying to get GH as high as you can without pushing IGF into risky territory.
Women have naturally higher GH and lower IGF than men, which is one of the reasons they have more youthful looking skin than men, at least until menopause when their GH drops and IGF shoots up.
Liter O' Test
Member
Anyone have CGM data or anecdotes from tirz, i wonder about the increased insulin sensitivity as the doses increase from 5mg+.
my chatgpt tells me its pretty negligable like 5-10% insulin sensitivity increase going from 5mg->10mg.
I'm at 6mg and I was having to eat some dirty meals to get my calories in since my appetite isnt really there, and then those meals slowed my digestion so.
not really hungry enough for plain old chicken and rice but I would like to get more donuts
my chatgpt tells me its pretty negligable like 5-10% insulin sensitivity increase going from 5mg->10mg.
I'm at 6mg and I was having to eat some dirty meals to get my calories in since my appetite isnt really there, and then those meals slowed my digestion so.
not really hungry enough for plain old chicken and rice but I would like to get more donuts
dinfar1337
New Member
i know few guys who are using tirz over reta because tirz brings glucose more down than reta. i know they are all using cgm i can ask them about decrease vs reta if you want
very trustworthy guys i will take their word 100% for it.
although i didnt notice many changes myself im only using 1-2mg and happy its so effective both at so low dosages.
Photon
Member
I'm honestly surprised how easy it was to get prescribed and prior auth submitted via teledocs. I simply said i was obese with high lipids and the provider prescribed and submitted my p.a. No verification or labwork was needed at all. You could be underweight and they'd still prescribe it...
I'm planning to finish up my UGL Reta, will keep escalating reta till ~25mg then probably switch over to Tirz 15mg US Pharma. I've been upgrading most of my stuff from India/CN PCT -> US Pharma. If i knew it was so easy, i would have done it much sooner lol.
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dinfar1337
New Member
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