Great response to certain DIM brand

[farmerjohn]

Here's my protocol: 0.80 ml T-cyp once a week, 400 iu of HCG (Novarel) for the 4 days prior to T-cyp injection. Bloodwork drawn 2 days after T-cyp injection when total T should be peaking.

I have been on this for about 3 months now. My total T levels have been running around 670 which is right where Dr. Shippen wanted it., but my E2 was up to around 50 pg/mL. I started taking 30 mg zinc chelate once a day and 1 DIM by Nature's Way. E2 didnt budge. Tried 2 DIM a day. Still no change. Then switched to the one pill a day of the DIM brand Phil has suggested and what a difference it seems to have made. Just got my labs back and total T was 747 while E2 dropped to 35 pg/mL. I was only on the new brand of DIM for 3 or 4 days before the blood work too. Plus my total T was even higher than when E2 was around 50.

I guess this could be a fluke or a the lab could have made a mistake but I doubt it. Here is a link to the brand DIM that worked:

http://www.ritecare.com/prodsheets/PHY-15336.html

eeso also posted this link to bodybuilding.com and he says these are same ones under a diff. label and cheaper:

http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/et/pure.html

Just thought I would pass this along for anyone wanting to try DIM. These results were while taking 1 pill a day. I will let you know after my next blood test but it may be a while, insurance is changing and have to drive a long way to the lab now.

 

[JanSz]

Here's my protocol: 0.80 ml T-cyp once a week, 400 iu of HCG (Novarel) for the 4 days prior to T-cyp injection. Bloodwork drawn 2 days after T-cyp injection when total T should be peaking.

I have been on this for about 3 months now. My total T levels have been running around 670 which is right where Dr. Shippen wanted it., but my E2 was up to around 50 pg/mL. I started taking 30 mg zinc chelate once a day and 1 DIM by Nature's Way. E2 didnt budge. Tried 2 DIM a day. Still no change. Then switched to the one pill a day of the DIM brand Phil has suggested and what a difference it seems to have made. Just got my labs back and total T was 747 while E2 dropped to 35 pg/mL. I was only on the new brand of DIM for 3 or 4 days before the blood work too. Plus my total T was even higher than when E2 was around 50.

I guess this could be a fluke or a the lab could have made a mistake but I doubt it. Here is a link to the brand DIM that worked:

http://www.ritecare.com/prodsheets/PHY-15336.html

eeso also posted this link to bodybuilding.com and he says these are same ones under a diff. label and cheaper:

http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/et/pure.html

Just thought I would pass this along for anyone wanting to try DIM. These results were while taking 1 pill a day. I will let you know after my next blood test but it may be a while, insurance is changing and have to drive a long way to the lab now.

That is 100IU daily for each of the four days prior to T, for the total of 400IU per week, correct?
Or it is 400IU daily, for the total of 4*400=1600IU per week?
If it is 400IU, is it long term dose, or short term booster?
------------
How do you deal with unused Novarel, throw it away or figured out something?
Advice on Novarel from Dr Shippen was?
Novarel supplied in 10000IU, supposed life is 30 days after oppening.
Use 2000IU within 5 weeks, 32 days between first and last HCG shot.
Thanks for update.
Happy New Year!

 

[farmerjohn]

It is 400 iu per day for total of 1600 iu per week. For now this is a long term dose not a booster. I was on HCG only therapy (no T-cyp) for about 6 months and kept increasing dosage until I got up to 500 iu per day (3500 iu per week) but I could not get my levels above about 300 total T on that. So Dr. Shjippen went to this combination of HCG and T-cyp. I was on androgel for 4 years prior to seeing Shippen and I think my testicles had atrophy to a point they can not recover. But I don't know for sure what the problem there is because there are also people like Phil who can get a good response from HCG after 20 years on TRT.

I believe Dr. Shippen feels the Novarel is ok for at least 6 weeks despite the box saying 30 days. I have typically used it all up in 6 weeks so have not had to deal with unused product but I guess I would just toss it in the trash. Of course I keep it in the fridge all the time except for a few minutes when I draw my dosage out of the bottle. I think you should be fine using it up in 32 days. The worst case is it may lose some potency but otherwise do no harm.

 

[masterpp]

thanks guys- have ordered two bottles of this brand.looking forward to it coming.

120 caps should last 4 months.

cheers phil and everyone

 

[JanSz]

It is 400 iu per day for total of 1600 iu per week. For now this is a long term dose not a booster. I was on HCG only therapy (no T-cyp) for about 6 months and kept increasing dosage until I got up to 500 iu per day (3500 iu per week) but I could not get my levels above about 300 total T on that. So Dr. Shjippen went to this combination of HCG and T-cyp. I was on androgel for 4 years prior to seeing Shippen and I think my testicles had atrophy to a point they can not recover. But I don't know for sure what the problem there is because there are also people like Phil who can get a good response from HCG after 20 years on TRT.

I believe Dr. Shippen feels the Novarel is ok for at least 6 weeks despite the box saying 30 days. I have typically used it all up in 6 weeks so have not had to deal with unused product but I guess I would just toss it in the trash. Of course I keep it in the fridge all the time except for a few minutes when I draw my dosage out of the bottle. I think you should be fine using it up in 32 days. The worst case is it may lose some potency but otherwise do no harm.

What was your T level when you first realised that you need to increase it, what was the origin of your problem?
Or did you messed it up by using something, what was it?

 

[farmerjohn]

Around the age of 40 when my wife and I were trying to have a 2nd child I noticed when I had to perform at a moments notice that it wasnt as easy as it used to be. She had fertility problems too so her fertile time was very short and it meant I had to be ready at any moment. As time progressed I noticed worsening lack of libido and ocassional ED. Eventually after doing some reading I realized I must have low T. Went to a urologist to have it checked and it was 98 on the first check, 135 on the second. He put me on androgel. I had to take 10g a day to get up to the 500's. I asked about clomid and HCG but was told they did not work. I got a second opinion with the same answers from another urologist. I stayed on the androgel 4 years before seeing Dr. Shippen. The androgel worked ok at first and at times worked pretty good but I would have long periods, weeks to months of low libido and ED symptoms. As far as I know I did not take anything to cause this. I was on some controversial antibiotic for about a month for a possible prostate infection not long before it started but I doubt that is related. I plan to start another thread soon about a possible cause of secondary hypogonadism due to having one of the hemochromatosis gene defects which I happen to have, even though I do not have hemochromatosis.

As of now the origin of my problem is unknown like many of us with secondary hypogonadism. I never took any steriods, never had a head injury, no pituitary adenoma that can be found on an MRI, etc etc....

 

[Cynical Simian]

farmerjohn, have you noticed any other changes (in mood, water retention, etc.) that corroborate the decrease in E2 in the lab results?

 

[farmerjohn]

To be honest, not a huge change in any other way. When my E2 was high (around 50 pg/mL) it did not seem to have a big negative effect on me like it has on others. But I was concerned about the possible future gyno and in particular I was very concerned about having high E2 and it eventually causing prostate cancer. Shippen tells me if your E2 is high and you get prostate cancer it is much more likely to be an agressive form of it.

I have noticed moring wood more often and easier erections. My wife tells me my modd is better, but I have also been having daily headaches from a sinus infection that are starting to resolve at the same time so it's hard to say which was the cause of the mood improvement.

 

[farmerjohn]

To be honest, not a huge change in any other way. When my E2 was high (around 50 pg/mL) it did not seem to have a big negative effect on me like it has on others. But I was concerned about the possible future gyno and in particular I was very concerned about having high E2 and it eventually causing prostate cancer. Shippen tells me if your E2 is high and you get prostate cancer it is much more likely to be an agressive form of it.

I have noticed moring wood more often and easier erections. My wife tells me my modd is better, but I have also been having daily headaches from a sinus infection that are starting to resolve at the same time so it's hard to say which was the cause of the mood improvement.

 

[JustOne]

Dear Sir,

Clinical studies looking at serum estradiol levels before and after
BioResponse DIM are only now in progress based on the collaboration
between BioResponse LLC and the National Cancer Institute. Earlier
published work looking at DIM in plasma generated from oral I3C showed
no change in serum estradiol levels. What did change was an increase in
the metabolism of Estrone the less active circulating form of estradiol.
Increased metabolism of Estrone to 2-hydroxy Estrone was found.

So, DIM itself is not a inhibitor of aromatase or a means to lower
estradiol which replaces the use of arimidex. DIM can be taken in
conjunction with arimidex. This helps maintain high 2-hydroxy estrogen
levels which may be beneficial for the prostate gland.

Kind regards,

Michael A. Zeligs, M.D.
Founder, BioResponse, LLC

This was sent to me today.

 

[Cynical Simian]

This was sent to me today.

Thanks, great info. I was considering ordering some DIM, but it looks like I'll have to ask my endo for an Arimidex script instead if my E2 comes back high in a couple weeks.

 

[JustOne]

Or you could try it for a month then get another test and see if it does work, afew people here claim it works, that letter was for the bioresponse formula, its the indoplex formula that is ment to work.

 

[pmgamer18]

This was sent to me today.

No one ever said it was an inhibitor of aromatase it converts Estradiol into good estrogens so your liver can get rid of it. And some bad estragens so this is why Dr. John says to take TMG with it to help was out the estrogens in the liver.

What was sent to you is dam old not new at all.
This is the link that tells you how it works.
http://www.dimfaq.com/index.htm
And this is full of links about it.
http://qualitycounts.com/fpdim.html

DO NOT MIX ARIMIDEX WITH DIM I DID AND GOT DAM SICK.

 

[Cynical Simian]

No one ever said it was an inhibitor of aromatase it converts Estradiol into good estrogens so your liver can get rid of it.

Yeah, I know. I assume he only mentioned it in response to some implicit comparison to Arimidex in the question.

Phil, I know you've said that you used morning wood to gauge the effects of DIM, but did you have any labs done while you were using it? If so, how did they compare to your previous ones?


JustOne, I think that's what I'll do. DIM seems like it's worth a try, given that, from what I've read, Arimidex and most other estrogen-lowering products aren't very desirable for long-term use.

 

[pmgamer18]

I have blood labs done every 6 weeks and you need to do this to control E2 because it's dam hard to tell the difference when your to low or to high. I don't do Indolplex/DIM any more I can't take 2 tablets and when I found I felt better at higher T levels one tablet did not do the job and 2 made me sick to my stomach. So now I do Arimidex lately it's been .5 mgs a day. Funny how it goes I was doing good at .5 every otherday but I added Cortef to my meds and my T, DHEA and Free T went way up so along with this so did my E2. I am finding that as I am now treating my low Cortisol and Thyroid my T levels keep going up. And we never change my Dose unless it shows up on 2 tests in a row. I am thinking as this gets better I will not need as much T and HCG and will be able to go back on Indolplex/DIM.

So you need to use morning wood and blood work to keep in the Zone. Now Dr. John told me the otherday if your SHBG is low then your E2 can go lower my last Test was low so I now keep my E2 at about 15 was keeping it at 20 to 25.
http://www.ritecare.com/prodsheets/PHY-15336.html

 

[JanSz]

I have blood labs done every 6 weeks and you need to do this to control E2 because it's dam hard to tell the difference when your to low or to high. I don't do Indolplex/DIM any more I can't take 2 tablets and when I found I felt better at higher T levels one tablet did not do the job and 2 made me sick to my stomach. So now I do Arimidex lately it's been .5 mgs a day. Funny how it goes I was doing good at .5 every otherday but I added Cortef to my meds and my T, DHEA and Free T went way up so along with this so did my E2. I am finding that as I am now treating my low Cortisol and Thyroid my T levels keep going up. And we never change my Dose unless it shows up on 2 tests in a row. I am thinking as this gets better I will not need as much T and HCG and will be able to go back on Indolplex/DIM.

So you need to use morning wood and blood work to keep in the Zone. Now Dr. John told me the otherday if your SHBG is low then your E2 can go lower my last Test was low so I now keep my E2 at about 15 was keeping it at 20 to 25.
http://www.ritecare.com/prodsheets/PHY-15336.html

Happy New Year.

The more I look the more I see importance of this sequence.
1.Adrenals
2.Thyroid
3.Estrogen
4a.HCG
4b.Testosterone

And the question is, how to judge when any of those four (or more) is at optimal level.
You, Phil have a huge advantage ove many, you testing blood every 6 weeks.
(And this is for the "comon" cases, outliers are even more complicated.)

 

[pmgamer18]

Happy New Year.

The more I look the more I see importance of this sequence.
1.Adrenals
2.Thyroid
3.Estrogen
4a.HCG
4b.Testosterone

And the question is, how to judge when any of those four (or more) is at optimal level.
You, Phil have a huge advantage ove many, you testing blood every 6 weeks.
(And this is for the "comon" cases, outliers are even more complicated.)

For my Adrenals and Thyroid I did my Temps and charted them see this link.
http://www.drrind.com/tempgraph.asp#directions
I take my temp 3 hrs. after I am up and every 3 hrs then avg. them and put on the chart in this link.
When I first started my temps were low and up and down from day to day this means my Adrenals needed Cortef So I stated adding it. Following this going up on the dose a little every few days.
http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/adrenal-info/how-to-treat
When my temps leveled off I started on Armour at 45mgs a day my temps when up some and when they come back down I add 15mgs more. i kept doing this until I got to 2.5 grams then my temps stay up for like 4 weeks. So I was adding 15mgs every 2 weeks until I got to 2,5 grams. Now as I got on more armour my temps started going higher. When I started my avg. temp was about 97.4 after getting to 2.5 grains of Armour my temps went up to 98.6 just last week they went down to 98.4 so this tells me I am hypo again so today I added 15mgs more.

When I started on Cortef my temps were going up and down from day to day more the .2 tenths so I went from 5mgs 3 time a day to 4 times a day and my temps stayed the same this tells me I am doing enough Cortef to support my adrenals.

Now if my temps start going up and down do to a cold or flue I will stress dose 5mgs. more for about 2 days this will get me past the cold or flue. I then go back down to 5mgs 4 times a day.

If I get stress out and feel weak I stress dose.

This takes care of my Adrenals and Thyroid.

For the rest I have been on TRT for 23 yrs so I am good just have to keep readjusting my dose of TRT.

So it's a lot of work but it works.

 

[JanSz]

For my Adrenals and Thyroid I did my Temps and charted them see this link.
http://www.drrind.com/tempgraph.asp#directions
I take my temp 3 hrs. after I am up and every 3 hrs then avg. them and put on the chart in this link.
When I first started my temps were low and up and down from day to day this means my Adrenals needed Cortef So I stated adding it. Following this going up on the dose a little every few days.
http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/adrenal-info/how-to-treat
When my temps leveled off I started on Armour at 45mgs a day my temps when up some and when they come back down I add 15mgs more. i kept doing this until I got to 2.5 grams then my temps stay up for like 4 weeks. So I was adding 15mgs every 2 weeks until I got to 2,5 grams. Now as I got on more armour my temps started going higher. When I started my avg. temp was about 97.4 after getting to 2.5 grains of Armour my temps went up to 98.6 just last week they went down to 98.4 so this tells me I am hypo again so today I added 15mgs more.

When I started on Cortef my temps were going up and down from day to day more the .2 tenths so I went from 5mgs 3 time a day to 4 times a day and my temps stayed the same this tells me I am doing enough Cortef to support my adrenals.

Now if my temps start going up and down do to a cold or flue I will stress dose 5mgs. more for about 2 days this will get me past the cold or flue. I then go back down to 5mgs 4 times a day.

If I get stress out and feel weak I stress dose.

This takes care of my Adrenals and Thyroid.

For the rest I have been on TRT for 23 yrs so I am good just have to keep readjusting my dose of TRT.
So it's a lot of work but it works.

Happy New Year
.
With all this medications keeping us in better health it seems as a good practice to keep one maybe two months supply at hand.
--------
At some point it probably make sense to stop increasing Armour.
--------
With TRT I did not make up my mind yet, but I think the idea may be as to use lowest dose of T that makes pines happy. Then DHT and E2 should be of lesser problem.
I am not sure because higher T levels are supposedly good over all, blood pressure, bones, sugar, whole works.


llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll

 

[pmgamer18]

I will stop adding Armour when my labs for Free T4 are up into the upper high end of the range same for FreeT3 when this is at the top of the range I will be good. I get my meds through the mail a 90 day supply. For a $5.00 co-pay. Can you post your T labs I feel any man under 400 needs TRT if they know why they are low.

 

[chasingtime]

I started taking 30 mg zinc chelate once a day and 1 DIM by Nature's Way. E2 didnt budge. Tried 2 DIM a day. Still no change. Then switched to the one pill a day of the DIM brand Phil has suggested and what a difference it seems to have made.

this makes absolutely no sense to me. they are the exact same bioresponse product from the exact same manufacturer. isnt that like saying i put one advil in a red bottle and one in a blue bottle and the one in the blue bottle is the only one that worked. im not trying to be smart here but can someone explain why this would be?