Great SSI article

Grizzly

New Member
Great (XXX) Social Security article

Social Security is Immoral
Thursday, February 3, 2005
By: Alex Epstein

We should be debating, not how to save Social Security, but how to end it.

In his State of the Union Address, President Bush said that many options were "on the table" to deal with Social Security's problems, and that he "will listen to anyone who has a good idea to offer." But there is one idea he will not listen to: the idea that Social Security should be phased out and ended altogether. Why? Because like his Democrat critics, he believes that whatever Social Securitys financial problems, the program is "a great moral success."

But is it?

Social Security is commonly portrayed as benefiting most, if not all, Americans by providing them "risk-free" financial security in old age.

This is a fraud.

Under Social Security, lower- and middle-class individuals are forced to pay a significant portion of their gross income--approximately 12%--for the alleged purpose of securing their retirement. That money is not saved or invested, but transferred directly to the program's current beneficiaries--with the "promise" that when current taxpayers get old, the income of future taxpayers will be transferred to them. Since this scheme creates no wealth, any benefits one person receives in excess of his payments necessarily come at the expense of others.

Under Social Security, every aspect of the government's "promise" to provide financial security is at the mercy of political whim. The government can change how much of an individual's money it takes--it has increased the payroll tax 17 times since 1935. The government can spend his money on anything it wants--observe the long-time practice of spending any annual Social Security surplus on other entitlement programs. The government can change when (and therefore if) it chooses to pay him benefits and how much they consist of--witness the current proposals to raise the age cutoff or lower future benefits. Under Social Security, whether an individual gets twice as much from others as was taken from him, or half as much, or nothing at all, is entirely at the discretion of politicians. He cannot count on Social Security for anything--except a massive drain on his income.

If Social Security did not exist--if the individual were free to use that 12% of his income as he chose--his ability to better his future would be incomparably greater. He could save for his retirement with a diversified, long-term, productive investment in stocks or bonds. Or he could reasonably choose not to devote all 12% to retirement. He might choose to work far past the age of 65. He might choose to live more comfortably when he is young and more modestly in old age. He might choose to invest in his own productivity through additional education or starting a business.

How much, when, and in what form one should provide for retirement is highly individual--and is properly left to the individual's free judgment and action. Social Security deprives the young of this freedom, and thus makes them less able to plan for the future, less able to provide for their retirements, less able to buy homes, less able to enjoy their most vital years, less able to invest in themselves. And yet Social Security's advocates continue to push it as moral. Why?

The answer lies in the program's ideal of "universal coverage"--the idea that, as a recent New York Times editorial preached, "all old people must have the dignity of financial security"--regardless of how irresponsibly they have acted. On this premise, since some would not save adequately on their own, everyone must be forced into some sort of "guaranteed" collective plan--no matter how irrational. Observe that Social Security's wholesale harm to those who would use their income responsibly is justified in the name of those who would not. The rational and responsible are shackled and throttled for the sake of the irrational and irresponsible.

Those who wish to devote their wealth to saving the irresponsible from the consequences of their own actions should be free to do so through private charity, but to loot the savings of untold millions of innocent, responsible, hard-working young people in the name of such a goal is a monstrous injustice.

Social Security in any form is morally irredeemable. We should be debating, not how to save Social Security, but how to end it--how to phase it out so as to best protect both the rights of those who have paid into it, and those who are forced to pay for it today. This will be a painful task. But it will make possible a world in which Americans enjoy far greater freedom to secure their own futures.

http:/www.aynrand.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=10857&news_iv_ctrl=1021
 
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Good article, even if it did come from Ayn Rand's site. ;)

I hate social security and wish it would be completely dismantled. I dont think that individuals should get all 12% of their current FICA contribution, I think some type of forced savings account with investment options is by far the best alternative. Even if individuals received 8% in cash and were forced to invest the other 4%, every working American would be much better off when it comes to retirement. People could have the choice of 5-6 types of stock mutual funds, a couple bond funds, maybe something really lame like treasury bills or even the super lame of a savings/money market account. People would be free to choose the investment they want based on their goals and there level of risk aversion. Unfortunately, the Dems would never let that happen since their entire livelihood is based on keeping people ignorant and poor, surviving off the handouts of the "altruistic" government.
 
Bob Smith said:
Good article, even if it did come from Ayn Rand's site. ;)

I think some type of forced savings account with investment options is by far the best alternative. Even if individuals received 8% in cash and were forced to invest the other 4%, every working American would be much better off when it comes to retirement.

!Ay dios mio! No wonder you had to put in the qualifier about it coming from the ARI. A "forced" savings account? :wow: What the hell is the difference? Maybe a little better in the rate of return but you still have no autonomy in your financial decisions. Step right up to the podium Mr. Stalin. ;)
 
Bob Smith said:
Unfortunately, the Dems would never let that happen since their entire livelihood is based on keeping people ignorant and poor, surviving off the handouts of the "altruistic" government.


HUH??? Don't you have that backwards.... I believe it's your Conservatives who profit most from the good ol' boy conservative inbreed southern fucks. It is Conservatives who always profit most from keeping the poor people ignorant..
 
BTW, what does this article have to do with SSI?

(Supplementel Security Income)
 
Hahahaha, Mr. Gov't Employee With the Appropriate Names For Shit. :p Whatever, I figured SSI was "social security income" or some shit like that. I'll be sure to amend the title so as not to confuse you in the future. ;)
 
Phreezer said:
HUH??? Don't you have that backwards.... I believe it's your Conservatives who profit most from the good ol' boy conservative inbreed southern fucks. It is Conservatives who always profit most from keeping the poor people ignorant..
The only way the Dems can get votes is through promising to keep payments flowing to poor, uneducated people. Its the majority of their voting base. Dont get me wrong though, I still dont agree with a lot of what the Reps have been doing with our money. I just happen to disagree with the Reps side less than I do with the Dems promises.

Grizzly, in an ideal world I would agree that we should get all 12% of the FICA tax in our paycheck. But we dont live in an ideal world and there are millions or morons that would spend every last penny, thereby saving nothing for retirement and their later years. Thats not an acceptable alternative, as much as it fits in line with your Ayn Rand beliefs. What happens when 50-60% of the population has $0 saved for retirement? Being able to save a measly 4% is something other than the current SS system would be a huge improvement and would give those people ownership. As much as I dont like much of what the govt does, in this case I think we have to protect against the ignorance and stupidity of the majority of Americans.

Just think of what people do with their current paychecks. Most people live paycheck to paycheck, with little to no money in savings, a huge mortgage for a house they cant afford, and a car payment that would make most people blush. Thats retarded. People are so irresponsible with their money that we honestly cant trust them to save for themselves. Geez, even with matching 401ks at work, roughly 40% of people still dont participate in those plans. THATS FREE MONEY and they still dont do it. When it comes to finances, the average American has an IQ of slighly above a rock.
 
^^^ Someone missed the point of the article. ;) So, then, you are in favor of the current AS legislation, since the vast majority of users are complete morons who don't use wisely, responsibly or with even the slightest education on how to properly use AS. Right? :D
 
Bob Smith said:
The only way the Dems can get votes is through promising to keep payments flowing to poor, uneducated people. Its the majority of their voting base. Dont get me wrong though, I still dont agree with a lot of what the Reps have been doing with our money. I just happen to disagree with the Reps side less than I do with the Dems promises.

Grizzly, in an ideal world I would agree that we should get all 12% of the FICA tax in our paycheck. But we dont live in an ideal world and there are millions or morons that would spend every last penny, thereby saving nothing for retirement and their later years. Thats not an acceptable alternative, as much as it fits in line with your Ayn Rand beliefs. What happens when 50-60% of the population has $0 saved for retirement? Being able to save a measly 4% is something other than the current SS system would be a huge improvement and would give those people ownership. As much as I dont like much of what the govt does, in this case I think we have to protect against the ignorance and stupidity of the majority of Americans.

Just think of what people do with their current paychecks. Most people live paycheck to paycheck, with little to no money in savings, a huge mortgage for a house they cant afford, and a car payment that would make most people blush. Thats retarded. People are so irresponsible with their money that we honestly cant trust them to save for themselves. Geez, even with matching 401ks at work, roughly 40% of people still dont participate in those plans. THATS FREE MONEY and they still dont do it. When it comes to finances, the average American has an IQ of slighly above a rock.

HaHa. I currently spend approx. $1639 per month in auto payments. Is that enough to make anyone blush?? LOL.

Say SS is abolished and there is no system for forced savings. Millions of Am's will of course squander their paychecks and end up broke and too sick and decrepid to work at 65. Right? Isn't that what welfare and medicare (or is it medicaid? I get confused) are designed to pay for? I don't think anyone can CONSUME finances as efficiently as our federal gov't. I don't care how stupid you are. You're better off with your own money than the fed's.

I am also deeply disturbed by the Republican party. Particularly this trend towards legislation that limits our freedoms in favor of some inconsequential perceived morality. I would much prefer a movement towards fiscal responsibility.

I would be very curious to know if Phreezer could support his arguement that the Rep's have more to gain by keeping people poor than the Dem's. The Dem's are champions of the entitlement programs. Are they not?
 
CyniQ said:
HaHa. I currently spend approx. $1639 per month in auto payments. Is that enough to make anyone blush?? LOL.
Personally, I think THAT'S stupid.

CyniQ said:
Say SS is abolished and there is no system for forced savings. Millions of Am's will of course squander their paychecks and end up broke and too sick and decrepid to work at 65. Right? Isn't that what welfare and medicare (or is it medicaid? I get confused) are designed to pay for? I don't think anyone can CONSUME finances as efficiently as our federal gov't. I don't care how stupid you are. You're better off with your own money than the fed's.
If you abolished SS and relied on Medicaid and welfare to pick up the pieces, then you havent solved any problem at all. All youve done in that scenario is simply shifted which gov't organization the payment comes from. You have done nothing to actually reduce govt spending or improve the overall financial standing of the American citizen.

IMO, most consumers ARE as stupid as the govt when it comes to spending. How else do you explain having $1600/month in car payments? :D Why else has bankruptcy filings hit a new record nearly every year for the past decade? Why is the average credit card debt increasing? Why are people that have $100k+ incomes getting foreclosed on? Look at the ~61% of Californians that have interest-only mortgages. Why else do 50+% of retired people live paycheck to paycheck and cant write a check for $600? The average American is an absolute retard when it comes to money management. And as much as I hate govt interference, I think there is no other alternative in this case but to have some sort of forced savings account or something as inefficient and lackluster as SS retirement.
 
CyniQ said:
HaHa. I currently spend approx. $1639 per month in auto payments. Is that enough to make anyone blush?? LOL.

Hey! My mother said I was a million dollar baby and, yet, your car payments are 3/4 of what my owners think I'm worth. :sad:
 
Bob Smith said:
Personally, I think THAT'S stupid.

If you abolished SS and relied on Medicaid and welfare to pick up the pieces, then you havent solved any problem at all. All youve done in that scenario is simply shifted which gov't organization the payment comes from. You have done nothing to actually reduce govt spending or improve the overall financial standing of the American citizen.

LOL. It's all relative. I'm no financial genius. But I have reasons for doing the things I do.

But the people who are going to end up supported by the gov't are going to end up that way regardless of whether they collect SS or not. Right? All I'm saying is throw ALL welfare recipients in one big pot. The problem I guess is that if you take the SS cash we pay in out of the mix. Then none of those programs would have enough cash to fund them.
 
CyniQ said:
LOL. It's all relative. I'm no financial genius. But I have reasons for doing the things I do.
Whats the reason, that you get to write off the car payments?
 
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