Guys new to training need to stop following bodybuilding magazines as far as training goes. For 95% of the population it doesn't work or is not optimal. These guys try those routines and it get no progress then they want to jump on gear and still look like shit. First a lot of pros have amazing genetics. They are able to train anyway they want and still gain more muscle then most people. When I first started training 15 years ago I would follow routines from flex and muscle and fiction and made very little progress. Not until I started to really learn how to train did I make progress. I'm not saying after years those routines won't work but guys need to learn what did they do when they started. Not what they do now. Guys need to learn how to train naturally before taking anything. If u can't build muscle naturally what going to happen when you come off? All your gains are gone. Then guess what? You jump back on. I see guys all the time they watch a Ronnie Colman video and do that half rep with momentum bullshit. Yes it works for him but you just look like a dick. So for guys just starting learn from respected coaches educate yourselves on how to really train. Not because you see a huge guy doing 15 reps per set with 3 min rest period. Whose slow twich dominant so he can. Everybody's body is different as well as muscle fiber type. You see how there are guys on meso that are extremely knoledgeable and very educated on gear? I think it would be great if training had as much attention. Because without training gear is a waste. Just my two cents.
MESO-Rx
Anabolic Steroids
Guys new to training "stop trying to do what the pros do"
- Thread starter ErikR
- Start date
I do agree with what you've said but gear isn't a waste without training. A pretty recent study if I'm not mistaken was done and had a group take no test and exercise, group taking test with no exercise, group taking, and a group taking test and exercising. The group on test with no exercise actually beat out or had the same progress as he group that wasn't on test but exercised.
That actually proves that you can do any bullshit workout and still make gains on cycle. But is it optimal? When you come off what will happen? Guys need to learn how to train naturally before even thinking about jumping on anything. Why shut your system down just to make a small amount of gains just to loose it after. When a person knows how to train naturally and can build muscle when they jump on they make great progress. Then when they come off they look worse then before the cycle. They jump on a cycle and gain 20 lbs and think it's muscle when in reality it's mostly water and fat because if a guy doesn't know ho to train he probably doesn't know shit about nutrition.
Like I said, I agree with you about learning to train and diet first but just bc that's what I recommend doesn't mean that someone can't use AAS and make progress without training.
raysugar1234
New Member
Even with gear I don't see how you could make good gains without training. If you did make any gains it wouldn't be much at all. I read a lot of the articles about training written by Ronnie Coleman and he has a lot of good tips. I don't agree that nothing can be learned from the pro's just because they take gear and have amazing genetics. Amazing genetics or not you still have to bust your ass to become an Olympia competitor. They train hard for YEARS to get where they are at and much can be learned from them, I don't think you should be so fast to write them off.
Look at the graphic. In terms of lbm gains and size of quadriceps, the group taking test without exercising had better results than the placebo group that did exercise. Obviously the group taking test and exercising fared the best.
Not that nothing can be learned from pros but the amount is so little I have a hard time justifying the time spent dissecting their info so I prefer just going to sources who know better. Pros often times have trainers and have no idea why they do what they do so it's not even the pro who knows why something works but his coach. The reason the pro is on stage and not the coach is bc of genetics and gear like you mentioned.
Unfortunately busting ass and training hard don't necessarily equate to making progress. This is evidenced by the amount of people you see every day working hard yet spinning their wheels year after year. You need to train smart and hard not just hard.
raysugar1234
New Member
It makes sense because I have met some guys who are built nice and have never touched a weight, obviously these are guys who have naturally high test levels.
Test levels is only one factor but there's many more like p-ratio (your partitioning ratio which determine how much of a calorie goes to building muscle and towards being stored as fat), leptin levels and resistance, insulin levels and resistance, ghrelin levels, cortisol, neuro peptide YY which is a new comer on the scene so I don't know much about it, etc etc
Biggest difference between a newcomer and an advanced bodybuilder is what you cannot see, and that is just how damn hard a veteran bodybuilder contracts his muscles during reps. He isnt concerned with how much he lifts, its all about pump and squeeze. Its a type of muscle control you cannot get unless you are seasoned.
For starters, those videos are much for show, trust me they arent lifting like that when the camera isnt around. The half reps are nothing more than building more and more on volumization and pump
For starters, those videos are much for show, trust me they arent lifting like that when the camera isnt around. The half reps are nothing more than building more and more on volumization and pump
Ozzy619
New Member
There are a few of us that give a lot more attention to training than gear. @weighted chinup being one of the most knowledgeable guys I know. I agree that genetics can help, but nothing like hard work. You can only get so far with genetics, gear makes up the difference if you train smart and hard.
What is the citation?
http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM199607043350101#t=article
N Engl J Med. 1996 Jul 4;335(1):1-7.
The effects of supraphysiologic doses of testosterone on muscle size and strength in normal men.
Bhasin S1, Storer TW, Berman N, Callegari C, Clevenger B, Phillips J, Bunnell TJ, Tricker R, Shirazi A, Casaburi R.
Abstract
BACKGROUND:
Athletes often take androgenic steroids in an attempt to increase their strength. The efficacy of these substances for this purpose is unsubstantiated, however.
METHODS:
We randomly assigned 43 normal men to one of four groups: placebo with no exercise; testosterone with no exercise; placebo plus exercise; and testosterone plus exercise. The men received injections of 600 mg of testosterone enanthate or placebo weekly for 10 weeks. The men in the exercise groups performed standardized weight-lifting exercises three times weekly. Before and after the treatment period, fat-free mass was determined by underwater weighing, muscle size was measured by magnetic resonance imaging, and the strength of the arms and legs was assessed by bench-press and squatting exercises, respectively.
RESULTS:
Among the men in the no-exercise groups, those given testosterone had greater increases than those given placebo in muscle size in their arms (mean [+/-SE] change in triceps area, 424 +/- 104 vs. -81 +/- 109 square millimeters; P < 0.05) and legs (change in quadriceps area, 607 +/- 123 vs. -131 +/- 111 square millimeters; P < 0.05) and greater increases in strength in the bench-press (9 +/- 4 vs. -1 +/- 1 kg, P < 0.05) and squatting exercises (16 +/- 4 vs. 3 +/- 1 kg, P < 0.05). The men assigned to testosterone and exercise had greater increases in fat-free mass (6.1 +/- 0.6 kg) and muscle size (triceps area, 501 +/- 104 square millimeters; quadriceps area, 1174 +/- 91 square millimeters) than those assigned to either no-exercise group, and greater increases in muscle strength (bench-press strength, 22 +/- 2 kg; squatting-exercise capacity, 38 +/- 4 kg) than either no-exercise group. Neither mood nor behavior was altered in any group.
CONCLUSIONS:
Supraphysiologic doses of testosterone, especially when combined with strength training, increase fat-free mass and muscle size and strength in normal men.
Thanks! I forgot about that particular result in the study.
The placebo+exercise group made more progress on strength variables.
And I wonder if there would have been any significant difference in fat-free mass if you accounted for the water retention of a 600mg/week testosterone enanthate cycle?
"The men treated with testosterone but no exercise had an increase of 3.2 kg in fat-free mass, and those in the placebo-plus-exercise group had an increase of 1.9 kg."
I should have cited the study you're right.
I think it makes sense for placebo+exercise group to have made better strength progress than the testosterone+no exercise group bc a big portion of strength is CNS adaptations. Muscular size, which was increased more in test+no exercise group, can help with strength with all other things being equal but you need to train to be able to fully optimize that newly acquired muscle. The exercise group had lifts as high as 90% 1RM down to 70% and did 4sets of 6reps which would come out to a decently high percentage of their 1RM.
I'm sure some of the fat free mass was water but they also state muscle size increased significantly more in the testosterone only group. They don't quantify the difference from what I can see though. You could say increased hydration in muscle tissue and not just random bloating is what caused the size but I remember reading another study that found a 600mg dose of testosterone was very effective in increasing type I and II muscle fiber size as well.
was the second study done without training as well? I agree some lbm can be made without training while taking aas. But how much of that is water? If their are 2 guys both with the same genetics 1 guy knows how to build muscle naturally and the other doesn't. They both jump on cycles. Who do you think is going to make better gains and actually be able to keep most of them? Far too many guys rely on gear for their gains. Only to come off and loose them. So many younger guys are blasting and cruising because of this. I know a lot of you guys agree. I think if they spent as much time learning about training as they do about what's best to stack with tren they would make better gains in the long run. I know guys that don't know how to train that look like shit and jump on and look like a bigger peice of shit. Then they come off just to look worse then before because they don't know how to maintain muscle and their hormones are out of wack. Then they want to take more the next cycle. I have a friend for years that has amazing genetics trained hard but no lie ate chicken wings and drank beer everyday with 6% bf all year around thick abs full muscle bellies never took anything. Then hears about winstrol and wanted to get tighter. 4 weeks later at 300mg winny a week he looked like he was ready for a photo shoot. Then their are the guys that know how to train and eat right on or off. Yes nothing can beat hard training and pros do train hard but guys need to learn what they did to get their. Not what they do now.
This is a good point that people considering getting on a cycle should be mentally AND physically prepared, as well as also continuing a proper training routne while on cycle.
raysugar1234
New Member
Taking a cycle and not training is a stupid idea though and a waste. Even if you can make some gains it's nothing like what could be accomplished if you get on a solid cycle and train right while keeping your diet in check.
