Hair Loss

[JK1]

I crash DHT with major sides, including total loss of libido. even on low doses of a 5-ar. Finally found .25mg / day Fin worked for me without sides. Basically a small crumb of a quartered fin tablet.

Wouldn't have dreamed of fucking with Dut since it only came in .5mg capsule (equivalent to 1.5mg Fin) which I knew would kill my DHT after a single capsule.

But once I found the solid tablets, only available in Asia, I was able to split them and found a low enough dose (.25mg /2x week) that worked without inducing sides.

I’m struggling to decide whether to continue 1mg fin per day (been on for over a a year) or switch to dut. I have 0.5mg tabs here.

Sounds like people just go with feels or some form of hair observation.

I like the idea of dut being way more effective on the scalp.

However I’m also aware of not wanting to nuke DHT on cycle.

Wonder if continuing 1mg fin, and say once weekly 0.25 dut is feasible. Complete guess work.

Any advice?

 

[Ghoul]

I’m struggling to decide whether to continue 1mg fin per day (been on for over a a year) or switch to dut. I have 0.5mg tabs here.

Sounds like people just go with feels or some form of hair observation.

I like the idea of dut being way more effective on the scalp.

However I’m also aware of not wanting to nuke DHT on cycle.

Wonder if continuing 1mg fin, and say once weekly 0.25 dut is feasible. Complete guess work.

Any advice?

Dut has an effect on total DHT levels 3x stronger by dose than Fin. It also has a much longer half life.

So 2-2.5mg / week would be equivalent to what you're taking now with Fin.

Since there's always the possibility of hypersensitivity I would start Dut 3x a week.

After two weeks if all is well increase to 4,

Be vigilant. and if you have no symptoms you could increase to 5 a week.

You don't need to reduce total DHT levels further for Dut to be more effective than Fin.

Just the addition of AR-5 type 1 "in follicle" inhibition will do that.

Of course, since 1mg Fin is tolerable, you might benefit from slightly more total DHT reduction and not suffer any sides, but you want to ramp up the dose slowly so you can stop if you become symptomatic and drop back.

.

 

[HUGE McBIGLARGE]

One thing I never see mentioned much is that if you’re running anti-androgens, you’re unable to assess what side effects it gives you without the risk of losing all of the hair you’ve saved.

Let’s say you start fin at 30. Now you’re 50. You’re feeling fatigued, libido is poor, you’re a bit depressed, dick doesn’t work like it used to. Maybe it’s just age creeping up on you, or maybe it’s the fin. You lower the fin dose, and see your hair start to degrade quickly. So you jump back on your original dose. You hadn’t been on the lower dose long enough for it to have had a big effect on your hair, but also not long enough for your symptoms to change. So now you’re trapped. Coming off of fin for 3 months would be long enough to assess your symptoms, but also long enough for you to lose all of your hair permanently. You can never know what you’re like off of it.

Finally found .25mg / day Fin worked for me without sides

Of course, you may be getting sides that are merely mild enough that they’re lost in the intraday variability of your life.

My libido can vary wildly from day to day, week to week, month to month. I’d notice if my libido was halved on average, but I’d never notice a 20% drop on average. I’d chalk it up to mere variability.

 

[Ghoul]

One thing I never see mentioned much is that if you’re running anti-androgens, you’re unable to assess what side effects it gives you without the risk of losing all of the hair you’ve saved.

Let’s say you start fin at 30. Now you’re 50. You’re feeling fatigued, libido is poor, you’re a bit depressed, dick doesn’t work like it used to. Maybe it’s just age creeping up on you, or maybe it’s the fin. You lower the fin dose, and see your hair start to degrade quickly. So you jump back on your original dose. You hadn’t been on the lower dose long enough for it to have had a big effect on your hair, but also not long enough for your symptoms to change. So now you’re trapped. Coming off of fin for 3 months would be long enough to assess your symptoms, but also long enough for you to lose all of your hair permanently. You can never know what you’re like off of it.


Of course, you may be getting sides that are merely mild enough that they’re lost in the intraday variability of your life.

My libido can vary wildly from day to day, week to week, month to month. I’d notice if my libido was halved on average, but I’d never notice a 20% drop on average. I’d chalk it up to mere variability.

Doesn't take more than 14 days for DHT to return to baseline after stopping Fin. Takes months for progress on hair to begin to reverse, and a year to revert to where you would've been without it.

Hair transplant surgeons even advise taking a month long Finasteride break to assess whether you should adjust the dose before resuming use if you suspect symptoms.

 

[HUGE McBIGLARGE]

Doesn't take more than 14 days for DHT to return to baseline after stopping Fin

Serum hormones don’t affect symptoms immediately. I can take transdermal testosterone, drop it, and within 2 days I’m hypogonadal. I can stay like that for weeks and feel no different. Conversely, jumping back on testosterone has me feeling no different for weeks.

Nebido had a monograph. The page is now down, but they detailed how on TRT it can take up to 8 years for the therapeutic effects to plateau. There’s plenty of sources saying similar stuff, albeit with timelines that are usually shorter.

. Takes months for progress on hair to begin to reverse,

Meaning that after months the hair loss is potentially permanent, albeit limited in severity

and a year to revert to where you would've been without it.

Yeah a year is definitely way too long. No getting your hair back after that.

Hair transplant surgeons even advise taking a month long Finasteride break to assess whether you should adjust the dose before resuming use if you suspect symptoms.

I’d agree a month is hair-safe, but is it long enough to get a good trajectory of the full scope of your symptoms? I’m not so sure.

 

[RedSalmon]

Multiple solid studies confirm Dutasteride is more effective, primarily by showing greater hair / cm counts.

But it's not just the systemic reduction in DHT, but where it's reduced.

Type 1 5-AR converts testosterone to DHT *within the hair follicle*. That DHT immediately starts to cause hair loss, and it ends up in scalp oil, acting like a topical DHT lotion on your head.

Only Dutasteride stops Type 1 5-AR (and Type 2), Finasteride only stops type 2 conversion.

Very interesting, thank you for the explanation. So does DHT, once formed in the hair follicle, immediately cause hair loss, or does it take some time before the hair starts falling out after DHT appears in the follicle?

 

[Ghoul]

Very interesting, thank you for the explanation. So does DHT, once formed in the hair follicle, immediately cause hair loss, or does it take some time before the hair starts falling out after DHT appears in the follicle?

FYI shed is not hair loss. It's usually the result of a sudden change in hormone levels. All hairs go through a cycle of grow, pause(rest), fall out, then restarts by growing again.

Loss is the gradual destruction of hair producing stem cells in the follicle, causing the strand to grow thinner and thinner over a long period of time until it disappears.



Obviously systemic type 2 generated DHT doesn't all reach your follicle stem cells. But type 1 produced DHT on your scalp is right there, doing a disproportionate amount of damage.

TLDR DHT attaches to receptors on the stem cells, causing them to lose their "immune privledge". The immune system attacks the stem cell, creating inflammation, which eventually leads to the death of the cell.

So while shed can happen fast, it's temporary, while loss is a really slow, gradual process like a smouldering fire burning up the hair producing factory. Male pattern balding happens in the order it does because the follicles (front and crown) have the most DHT receptors, so they get killed first.

 

[JK1]

Dut has an effect on total DHT levels 3x stronger by dose than Fin. It also has a much longer half life.

So 2-2.5mg / week would be equivalent to what you're taking now with Fin.

Since there's always the possibility of hypersensitivity I would start Dut 3x a week.

After two weeks if all is well increase to 4,

Be vigilant. and if you have no symptoms you could increase to 5 a week.

You don't need to reduce total DHT levels further for Dut to be more effective than Fin.

Just the addition of AR-5 type 1 "in follicle" inhibition will do that.

Of course, since 1mg Fin is tolerable, you might benefit from slightly more total DHT reduction and not suffer any sides, but you want to ramp up the dose slowly so you can stop if you become symptomatic and drop back.

.

Thanks, much appreciated.

To be clear, that 2-2.5mg of dut per week ,as a starter equivalent of my ED fin dose, are you suggesting split that up over 3-5 times a week?

What would be the most common sides effects of crashing dht, assuming it’s lethargy, libido?

 

[RedSalmon]

FYI shed is not hair loss. It's usually the result of a sudden change in hormone levels. All hairs go through a cycle of grow, pause(rest), fall out, then restarts by growing again.

Loss is the gradual destruction of hair producing stem cells in the follicle, causing the strand to grow thinner and thinner over a long period of time until it disappears.

View attachment 326059

Obviously systemic type 2 generated DHT doesn't all reach your follicle stem cells. But type 1 produced DHT on your scalp is right there, doing a disproportionate amount of damage.

TLDR DHT attaches to receptors on the stem cells, causing them to lose their "immune privledge". The immune system attacks the stem cell, creating inflammation, which eventually leads to the death of the cell.

So while shed can happen fast, it's temporary, while loss is a really slow, gradual process like a smouldering fire burning up the hair producing factory. Male pattern balding happens in the order it does because the follicles (front and crown) have the most DHT receptors, so they get killed first.

I've always wondered why the front part of the hairline goes bald first. Thank you for the extremely helpful information!

 

[Kaiserpr]

Some of you bros dont care about hair loss, but it can be a big concern for most of us other bros. I'm 35 and I still have a thick and full head of hair. I am not one of those guys who would look good bald or balding. In some of my cycles years ago, I noticed large volumes of hair falling out in the shower during a cycle. This brought me to the point where I would look in the mirror and say, "What good is there in having huge muscles if my hair looks like crap?" So my search began to find the best possible hair solution, which involves stopping hair loss and even reversing it!

Let me just show you the final results (IN ORDER OF IMPORTANCE), and I will comment on each:

​

1. AVODART® (Dutasteride) - Dutasteride was developed to help shrink the prostate and was found to have an even more profound effect on regrowing hair than Finasteride! Not only that, it can take care of more of your DHT, it starts working faster, and stays in your system for much longer. 1 to 5 mg ED is all you need, and it also keeps that prostate down during your cycles. In my book, this is a win/win situation.
2. PROPECIA® (Finasteride) - Next to Viagra, this drug may have had one of the all time record advertising budgets. Finasteride is a hair loss prevention / regrowth drug. Recommended dose is 1 mg ED and after 6 to 12 months the user may achieve positive results. The reason I write "big 4" in the title of this thread is that it may not be necessary to use both Dutasteride and Finasteride, although there are no known drug interactions. I say roll with Dutasteride if you can and if not then use Finasteride.
3. ROGAINE® (Minoxidil) - Cheap to buy generic at target in three month supply, Minoxidil blocks DHT on the scalp. After handling DHT within the body via Dutasteride or Finasteride, you can also stop the damage of DHT on the scalp. Use twice a day. I use it after my morning shower and after my workout shower.
4. NIOXIN® (Cleanser, Conditioner, and Treatment) - Use these Nioxin products as your daily shampoo and conditioner. They work on the scalp to ensure that your skin is healthy. Shampoo removes impurities that clog follicles, including DHT. The conditioner keeps the scalp moisturized. The treatment adds botanicals and nutrients to the scalp skin.
5. NIZORAL® (A-D Shampoo) - Ketoconazole, the main ingredient in Nizoral, acts as a relatively mild anti-androgen. (Androgen binds to hair follicles and over time shrinks them down, causing thinner and thinner hair.) Use this shampoo once a week for help with DHT.

This hair regiment is not difficult to maintain, and can provide great results. I went from losing my hair to growing it back! It takes a few months to start working, so for the first 6 months have patience. Passing the 1 to 2 year markers using the "Big 4" regiment should yield significant hair gains, or at the very least put an end to your loss.

This article assumes appropriate nutrition, hydration, and sleep.

Peace,

-bj

Thanks for sharing. Wondering if GHK Cu also had same results.

 

[JK1]

Do any of worry about reducing DHT too much?

 

[RandallFlagg]

Do any of worry about reducing DHT too much?

Yes, absolutely. In my mind it's 100% of the cause of sexual side effects on these meds...but that's opinion more than researched fact.

I do think that was kinda what Ghoul had been referencing in prior posts but haven't been following this thread.

 

[JK1]

Yes, absolutely. In my mind it's 100% of the cause of sexual side effects on these meds...but that's opinion more than researched fact.

I do think that was kinda what Ghoul had been referencing in prior posts but haven't been following this thread.

Thanks, agree. Yeah opinion indeed but lots of it, it seems. 10 seconds in some places on reddit and the warnings and stories against the likes of fin or dut is plentiful.

 

[AlexDavis43]

Yes, absolutely. In my mind it's 100% of the cause of sexual side effects on these meds...but that's opinion more than researched fact.

I do think that was kinda what Ghoul had been referencing in prior posts but haven't been following this thread.

Thanks, agree. Yeah opinion indeed but lots of it, it seems. 10 seconds in some places on reddit and the warnings and stories against the likes of fin or dut is plentiful.

I have a good functioning dick and am not about to take any drugs that could change that. Good head of hair with topicals & micro needling (preventive).

If I had to choose, I'd pick the D, but I don't think you have to choose.

 

[RandallFlagg]

I have a good functioning dick and am not about to take any drugs that could change that. Good head of hair with topicals & micro needling (preventive).

If I had to choose, I'd pick the D, but I don't think you have to choose.

It does seem like allowing DHT to bounce back avoids the dick side effects.

However, Fin and Dut really fuck with my mood as well so I avoid them. I agree that fucking with DHT and these meds is probably just not worth saving some hair (I think that's what you're saying)

I wish I could tolerate them because my prostate is jacked (BPH I presume)...I'm envious when an 80 year old man walks into the public restroom and pisses a solid stream while I've been standing at the urinal for 5 minutes to "git 'er done"...lol.

I looked into the microneedle you linked a while back and it's on my wish list. Just not sure if I would go with topical dutasteride or something else (I do take oral Minoxidil...the topical Minoxidil has been such a pain in the ass for me..lol).

 

[AlexDavis43]

It does seem like allowing DHT to bounce back avoids the dick side effects.

However, Fin and Dut really fuck with my mood as well so I avoid them. I agree that fucking with DHT and these meds is probably just not worth saving some hair (I think that's what you're saying)

I wish I could tolerate them because my prostate is jacked (BPH I presume)...I'm envious when an 80 year old man walks into the public restroom and pisses a solid stream while I've been standing at the urinal for 5 minutes to "git 'er done"...lol.

I looked into the microneedle you linked a while back and it's on my wish list. Just not sure if I would go with topical dutasteride or something else (I do take oral Minoxidil...the topical Minoxidil has been such a pain in the ass for me..lol).

I do microneedling for a few minutes once a week and don't use topicals that day (sometimes I forget lol). The other days it's rogaine and RU.

Disclaimer: I have shitty hair genetics but currently still have a good head of hair. This is for prevention.

 

[Volute]

It does seem like allowing DHT to bounce back avoids the dick side effects.

However, Fin and Dut really fuck with my mood as well so I avoid them. I agree that fucking with DHT and these meds is probably just not worth saving some hair (I think that's what you're saying)

I wish I could tolerate them because my prostate is jacked (BPH I presume)...I'm envious when an 80 year old man walks into the public restroom and pisses a solid stream while I've been standing at the urinal for 5 minutes to "git 'er done"...lol.

I looked into the microneedle you linked a while back and it's on my wish list. Just not sure if I would go with topical dutasteride or something else (I do take oral Minoxidil...the topical Minoxidil has been such a pain in the ass for me..lol).

What does dut do to your mood? I wouldn't mind some hair protection but I'd rather be bald than an asshole lol.

Have you tried low dose Cialis/tadalafil? I can piss like a teenager on a few mg/day of that shit.

 

[HUGE McBIGLARGE]

Be cautious with dermarolling. It fucked my hair up.

Back when Testogel was all I could get, I used to rotate between dermarolling my calves, thighs, belly, arms, armpits, shoulders, and back. I used a 1mm, 192 needle if I recall correctly. After dermarolling I’d apply the Testogel.

I’ve always had a slightly thin spot about 2cm in diameter on my scalp from years of wearing a headset. I figured I’d dermaroll my scalp. Bought a new dermaroller and did that thin spot as well as my hairline twice a week. After about a month I noticed I was losing massive amounts of hair where I was dermarolling. So I stopped doing it. I continued to lose more hair for the next month.

A few months later I stopped the Testogel, and stopped dermarolling completely. It fucked my body hair up, too, as most of that didn’t grow back.

The only hair that managed to be resistant to the dermarolling was my belly. Other than that, the hair has struggled to grow. I can see exactly where I’ve dermarolled, because the hair just stops. Especially on my calves and legs.

It’s been two years since I quit dermarolling, and the hair loss hasn’t worsened or improved.

I dunno what I did wrong. Maybe I did it too frequently. Maybe I pressed too hard. Either way, there’s not much literature supporting dermarolling’s efficacy, and there’s no indication whether or not you’re doing it right, until it’s too late as in my case. I’d recommend against it, but only because I’m mad.

 

[AlexDavis43]

Be cautious with dermarolling. It fucked my hair up.

Back when Testogel was all I could get, I used to rotate between dermarolling my calves, thighs, belly, arms, armpits, shoulders, and back. I used a 1mm, 192 needle if I recall correctly. After dermarolling I’d apply the Testogel.

I’ve always had a slightly thin spot about 2cm in diameter on my scalp from years of wearing a headset. I figured I’d dermaroll my scalp. Bought a new dermaroller and did that thin spot as well as my hairline twice a week. After about a month I noticed I was losing massive amounts of hair where I was dermarolling. So I stopped doing it. I continued to lose more hair for the next month.

A few months later I stopped the Testogel, and stopped dermarolling completely. It fucked my body hair up, too, as most of that didn’t grow back.

The only hair that managed to be resistant to the dermarolling was my belly. Other than that, the hair has struggled to grow. I can see exactly where I’ve dermarolled, because the hair just stops. Especially on my calves and legs.

It’s been two years since I quit dermarolling, and the hair loss hasn’t worsened or improved.

I dunno what I did wrong. Maybe I did it too frequently. Maybe I pressed too hard. Either way, there’s not much literature supporting dermarolling’s efficacy, and there’s no indication whether or not you’re doing it right, until it’s too late as in my case. I’d recommend against it, but only because I’m mad.

That's wild.

Dermarolling is different from microneedling. Something about how the dermaroller goes in and out at different angles, might be tearing the skin up more than microneedling, which is straight up and down.

 

[HUGE McBIGLARGE]

That's wild.

Dermarolling is different from microneedling. Something about how the dermaroller goes in and out at different angles, might be tearing the skin up more than microneedling, which is straight up and down.

Definitely. There is fairly equal literature on both microneedling and dermarolling being moderately effective, so I didn’t give the mechanistic differences much credit. It’s totally possible that the angles is what fucked my hair up. It’s also totally possible microneedling would have done the same thing.

In my opinion, given the risk of infection, the limited efficacy in the studies, and there being nothing to suggest it’s safe for life-long use, I wouldn’t have bothered with it in retrospect.

I’m not saying I’m categorically right on this, I just want people to know that the number of people who seriously regret dermarolling their scalp is >0