Hair Loss

[BigDadd7]

I just saw my derm recently and followed up with my primary for her opinion on hair and accutane treatment that was suggested. She spent about 45 minutes with me while pulling up the latest research study findings and sifting through the data with me.

Derm wanted to just start me on finasteride right away to not "screw around and wait till it gets bad" since im just having early signs, but I was hesitant since it feels like the most aggresive treatment option. Primary agreed with my approach of using topicals first to halt any loss and jump to finasteride when I feel the need.

The studies showed that Finasteride is the best option for hair regrowth, but that it was much more effective when paired with topical Minoxidil. Finasteride + Minoxidil topical was the golden combination with best success rates and long term results.

I understand you guys wanting to use oral minoxidil over an actual dht blocker like finasteride (that what I chose to do as well). But might want to look into the success rates between oral minoxidil and oral + topical application of minoxidil.

My derm or primary dont know Im taking test, so they think its just bad genetics.. But I know why the shedding really started lol This is why im still using topical dht blocker KXM.

Minoxidil 1x/day,
KXM 1x/day,
Clobetasol topical 5x/week
Ketakonozole Shampoo 3x/week
Cerave non-medicated shampoo/conditioner 4x/week (rotate with keta)
CLF Shampoo - Salycylic Acid base shampoo (rotate with cerave weekly)

Things are going pretty well so far.

Ketocanzole shampoo can be very drying amd inflammatory on your scalp if used twice a week. Maybe drop down to once or twice a week.

 

[connoristiny]

If you're lucky and have enough scalp sulfotransferases then topical will work just fine. However, many people don't have enough in their scalp but they do have enough in their liver. This allows people to convert the minoxidil to the active form. This is why oral appears to be more effective.

As far as heart issues goes. The most common is elevated heart rate and palpitations which is not really "fucking up your heart." There is a dose Unrelated rate of pericarditis which is an inflammation of the sack that surrounds your heart. This is rare.

The most common reason for discontinuation by far is edema or swelling.

I notice mild edema around the ankles. At what point would this be problematic? (I am fairly lean if that is noteworthy)

 

[Elektrobot]

I notice mild edema around the ankles. At what point would this be problematic? (I am fairly lean if that is noteworthy)

Does that come with elevated blood pressure from fluid retention?

 

[k710]

Ketocanzole shampoo can be very drying amd inflammatory on your scalp if used twice a week. Maybe drop down to once or twice a week.

Yeah I hate how it makes my hair feel. The cerave gentle conditioner helps a lot, but still feels weird. I think I am going to drop down to once a week. Thanks for the suggestion

 

[fatsacksdaddy82]

Some of you bros dont care about hair loss, but it can be a big concern for most of us other bros. I'm 35 and I still have a thick and full head of hair. I am not one of those guys who would look good bald or balding. In some of my cycles years ago, I noticed large volumes of hair falling out in the shower during a cycle. This brought me to the point where I would look in the mirror and say, "What good is there in having huge muscles if my hair looks like crap?" So my search began to find the best possible hair solution, which involves stopping hair loss and even reversing it!

Let me just show you the final results (IN ORDER OF IMPORTANCE), and I will comment on each:

​

1. AVODART® (Dutasteride) - Dutasteride was developed to help shrink the prostate and was found to have an even more profound effect on regrowing hair than Finasteride! Not only that, it can take care of more of your DHT, it starts working faster, and stays in your system for much longer. 1 to 5 mg ED is all you need, and it also keeps that prostate down during your cycles. In my book, this is a win/win situation.
2. PROPECIA® (Finasteride) - Next to Viagra, this drug may have had one of the all time record advertising budgets. Finasteride is a hair loss prevention / regrowth drug. Recommended dose is 1 mg ED and after 6 to 12 months the user may achieve positive results. The reason I write "big 4" in the title of this thread is that it may not be necessary to use both Dutasteride and Finasteride, although there are no known drug interactions. I say roll with Dutasteride if you can and if not then use Finasteride.
3. ROGAINE® (Minoxidil) - Cheap to buy generic at target in three month supply, Minoxidil blocks DHT on the scalp. After handling DHT within the body via Dutasteride or Finasteride, you can also stop the damage of DHT on the scalp. Use twice a day. I use it after my morning shower and after my workout shower.
4. NIOXIN® (Cleanser, Conditioner, and Treatment) - Use these Nioxin products as your daily shampoo and conditioner. They work on the scalp to ensure that your skin is healthy. Shampoo removes impurities that clog follicles, including DHT. The conditioner keeps the scalp moisturized. The treatment adds botanicals and nutrients to the scalp skin.
5. NIZORAL® (A-D Shampoo) - Ketoconazole, the main ingredient in Nizoral, acts as a relatively mild anti-androgen. (Androgen binds to hair follicles and over time shrinks them down, causing thinner and thinner hair.) Use this shampoo once a week for help with DHT.

This hair regiment is not difficult to maintain, and can provide great results. I went from losing my hair to growing it back! It takes a few months to start working, so for the first 6 months have patience. Passing the 1 to 2 year markers using the "Big 4" regiment should yield significant hair gains, or at the very least put an end to your loss.

This article assumes appropriate nutrition, hydration, and sleep.

Peace,

-bj

Thanks great information

 

[VikingMD]

Does that come with elevated blood pressure from fluid retention?

I know you didn't ask me but the answer is "no". Minoxidil lowers blood pressure and the swelling is because it makes vessels slightly leaky which allows the fluid to leak out.

 

[Cman90]

I'm making the change from topical Minoxidil to oral. What are your thoughts/experiences on 2.5mg vs 5 mg daily.

This article states 2.5mg can be as effective as 5mg for hair growth, but it has significant limitations.

Oral Minoxidil 2.5 mg vs 5 mg: Similar Efficacy for AGA

Oral minoxidil at a 2.5 mg daily dose is as effective as 5 mg for androgenetic alopecia in men, with fewer adverse events and better tolerability.

www.medscape.com

@Ghoul you seem to be quite knowledgeable in this area. Do you have any thoughts?

 

[Ghoul]

@Ghoul you seem to be quite knowledgeable in this area. Do you have any thoughts?

The majority of benefit comes from 2.5mg, but 5mg is proven to give better results. There’s no additional benefit with doses higher than 5mg.

I have a prescription for 5mg / day, but in the US there are no 5mg tabs, so I get 2x2.5mg.

The thing is when I take both, I get some water retention in my face, which doesn’t look good on me. This is highly individual, so probably won’t impact most people.

By splitting the 5mg dose up into morning and evening I avoid the water retention.

So if you’re just starting, I suggest taking 2.5mg for a month, to allow your body to adjust. If there’s any water retention it usually resolves in that time. Then increase to 5mg for a month. Again, any water retention, if it happens, should resolve after a month. If not, split into two (2.5mg) doses a day.

If that’s too much to deal with, 2.5mg once a day will still work well. Unlike topical, which can be completely ineffective for people lacking a certain enzyme in the scalp needed to convert minoxidil to.the active form, oral is 100% effective. The liver has an abundant supply of the enzyme so oral is completely converted in everyone.

 

[Cman90]

The majority of benefit comes from 2.5mg, but 5mg is proven to give better results. There’s no additional benefit with doses higher than 5mg.

I have a prescription for 5mg / day, but in the US there are no 5mg tabs, so I get 2x2.5mg.

The thing is when I take both, I get some water retention in my face, which doesn’t look good on me. This is highly individual, so probably won’t impact most people.

By splitting the 5mg dose up into morning and evening I avoid the water retention.

So if you’re just starting, I suggest taking 2.5mg for a month, to allow your body to adjust. If there’s any water retention it usually resolves in that time. Then increase to 5mg for a month. Again, any water retention, if it happens, should resolve after a month. If not, split into two (2.5mg) doses a day.

If that’s too much to deal with, 2.5mg once a day will still work well. Unlike topical, which can be completely ineffective for people lacking a certain enzyme in the scalp needed to convert minoxidil to.the active form, oral is 100% effective. The liver has an abundant supply of the enzyme so oral is completely converted in everyone.

Thank you sir, I will do that.

 

[trenisbest]

how long to see visible hair unminaturisation in the context of only androgen deprivation (RU and Dutasteride, no minox), after dutasteride has fully saturated? @Ghoul

 

[Ghoul]

how long to see visible hair unminaturisation in the context of only androgen deprivation (RU and Dutasteride), after dutasteride has fully saturated? @Ghoul

All the studies are pretty consistent.

3 months for stabilization.

6 months some visible improvement typical. (Almost always measurable improvement when hair count and shaft thickness is checked vs baseline).

12 months clearly visible improvement in nearly everyone. The type other people notice.

Improvement continues, in some cases up to 5 years of continuing hair gains.

Minoxidil follows a similar trajectory, but gains usually max out at 2 years.

It’s a long game. Which is why the most important thing is to figure out a protocol you’re willing to stick with. (Why I think most men are much better off with oral minoxidil than topical).

 

[trenisbest]

All the studies are pretty consistent.

3 months for stabilization.

6 months some visible improvement typical. (Almost always measurable improvement when hair count and shaft thickness is checked vs baseline).

12 months clearly visible improvement in nearly everyone. The type other people notice.

Improvement continues, in some cases up to 5 years of continuing hair gains.

Minoxidil follows a similar trajectory, but gains usually max out at 2 years.

It’s a long game. Which is why the most important thing is to figure out a protocol you’re willing to stick with. (Why I think most men are much better off with oral minoxidil than topical).

this is in regards to dutasteide only, right? since theres not much on RU58841

 

[Ghoul]

this is in regards to dutasteide only, right? since theres not much on RU58841

Yes. The combination of Dutasteride and oral Minoxidil produces the most consistent, best results in terms of preventing further loss and new growth in high quality studies.

Boring, I know. Everyone thinks there’s a “secret” out there that does better, but considering the first to “cure” MPB will instantly become one of the richest companies overnight, it’s not likely the thousands of researchers have overlooked anything promising.

The thing people need to ask themselves with RU is why it wasn’t commercialized. Like Carderine, it could’ve been an overnight blockbuster drug.

What most don’t realize is that in Phase 1 and 2, drug companies can stop development and never have to reveal why. It’s not unheard of for initial human participants to DIE in early trials, something they’ve had to sign deals for the possibility of, including agreeing that their deaths or serious harms caused by the experimental drug will be kept confidential in exchange for compensation.

My understanding is that systemic exposure to metabolites of RU is so high, it was decided they’d never get safety approval so it was abandoned.

 

[trenisbest]

Yes. The combination of Dutasteride and oral Minoxidil produces the most consistent, best results in terms of preventing further loss and new growth in high quality studies.

Boring, I know. Everyone thinks there’s a “secret” out there that does better, but considering the first to “cure” MPB will instantly become one of the richest companies overnight, it’s not likely the thousands of researchers have overlooked anything promising.

The thing people need to ask themselves with RU is why it wasn’t commercialized. Like Carderine, it could’ve been an overnight blockbuster drug.

What most don’t realize is that in Phase 1 and 2, drug companies can stop development and never have to reveal why. It’s not unheard of for initial human participants to DIE in early trials, something they’ve had to sign deals for the possibility of, including agreeing that their deaths or serious harms caused by the experimental drug will be kept confidential in exchange for compensation.

My understanding is that systemic exposure to metabolites of RU is so high, it was decided they’d never get safety approval so it was abandoned.

systematic exposure was not detected with ru

it was the lack of financing and the state of the market at the time that were major factors. RU was being researched around the same time finasteride was introduced, and finasteride quickly came to dominate the hair loss industry. As a result, the company developing RU likely saw FDA approval as financially unviable, believing they couldn't compete or generate a return on the substantial investment required for clinical trials. This pattern has been common with other potential treatments as well, until more recently. It's easy to see that, for a long time, the mainstream options have remained limited to finasteride, minoxidil, and less commonly Dutasteride.

"
Topical anti-androgen

This is an innovative molecule with a unique mechanism of action for the treatment of androgen-dependent conditions, such as alopecia and acne.

In pre-clinical studies, it has shown promising activity in various models of acne, alopecia and hirsutism. The product has good systemic and dermal tolerance.

In human clinical pharmacology, there was no systemic anti-androgenic activity and again good general and dermal tolerance.

The molecule has completed several Phase I studies and a Proof of Concept Phase II study for alopecia.

It has demonstrated similar efficacy after 6 months treatment as that observed with current oral therapy for alopecia after twelve months, based on the increase in net hair count. Again, no systemic anti-androgenic effect was observed (n=90).

This product is available for licensing.
"

Oral minoxidil causes bloating on 100% of users. Stopping for 2 weeks will make that apparent to anyone that thinks otherwise.

 

[Ghoul]

systematic exposure was not detected with ru

it was the lack of financing and the state of the market at the time that were major factors. RU was being researched around the same time finasteride was introduced, and finasteride quickly came to dominate the hair loss industry. As a result, the company developing RU likely saw FDA approval as financially unviable, believing they couldn't compete or generate a return on the substantial investment required for clinical trials. This pattern has been common with other potential treatments as well, until more recently. It's easy to see that, for a long time, the mainstream options have remained limited to finasteride, minoxidil, and less commonly Dutasteride.

"
Topical anti-androgen

This is an innovative molecule with a unique mechanism of action for the treatment of androgen-dependent conditions, such as alopecia and acne.

In pre-clinical studies, it has shown promising activity in various models of acne, alopecia and hirsutism. The product has good systemic and dermal tolerance.

In human clinical pharmacology, there was no systemic anti-androgenic activity and again good general and dermal tolerance.

The molecule has completed several Phase I studies and a Proof of Concept Phase II study for alopecia.

It has demonstrated similar efficacy after 6 months treatment as that observed with current oral therapy for alopecia after twelve months, based on the increase in net hair count. Again, no systemic anti-androgenic effect was observed (n=90).

This product is available for licensing.
"

Oral minoxidil causes bloating on 100% of users. Stopping for 2 weeks will make that apparent to anyone that thinks otherwise.

Good luck with that thick mane of hair RU will give you, and have a good laugh over the idiot biochemists who decided joining the richest people in the world was more trouble than it’s worth.

 

[Scob]

RU has an immediate effect on my shedding. And hair is thicker almost within a week.
But the anedoctal reports on Reddit are scary AF.
I haven’t gotten any of the sides I read . But afaik if it goes systemic can have serious bad effects on your health.

Oral Finas gave me skin hives and limp dick.
Topical finas did nothing for me.
Unfortunately because I’d be all for dropping RU

 

[wp_375]

RU has an immediate effect on my shedding. And hair is thicker almost within a week.
But the anedoctal reports on Reddit are scary AF.
I haven’t gotten any of the sides I read . But afaik if it goes systemic can have serious bad effects on your health.

Oral Finas gave me skin hives and limp dick.
Topical finas did nothing for me.
Unfortunately because I’d be all for dropping RU

No offense, but this is the dumbest fucking thing I've read on here in quite some time.

It's not biologically possible for your hair to become "thicker almost within a week". Hair changes take months to become apparent

 

[Scob]

No offense, but this is the dumbest fucking thing I've read on here in quite some time.

It's not biologically possible for your hair to become "thicker almost within a week". Hair changes take months to become apparent

Well I have a head full of hair and just shedding on the crown.
RU made other parts way thicker. But you don’t have to believe it. Go ahead and try yourself or keep using your time on an online forum trolling people

 

[smpledude]

Sorry for the unrelated question but where can one get oral Minoxidil in Europe ?

 

[ColdDuck]

Thanks for posting g