hematocrit

[Throwback]

Let me ask you. In your opinion, what number or range would you consider to be "the danger zone" for hemoglobin?

Above 18.5 ish...red cross wont take blood above 20 i think.

 

[Burrr]

I live at high altitude, had high 17s as a natty and see the low 18s routinely while on TRT. saw low 20s when I tried adrol for half a cycle. never again on that stuff. I do see a direct link to hydration. I also have the idea that prolonged dehydration leads to higher numbers as well.

 

[Dr JIM]

You need to donate now...imagine a pump working to pump cold maple syrup...then the ease it pumps it when its warm.
54 hct is problem zone thickness...then add in elevated cholesterol from tren use and you have the potential for a huge problem.

A crit of 54% is WNL and does NOT mandate donation.

Whether someone should donate blood as a means of lowering AAS thrombotic risk is based upon three primary risk factors namely;

1) blood viscosity
2) hypercoagubility
3) vascular stasis

And all of these can be influenced by hydration status.

Finally as of 2016 the ARC will not accept blood from those with crits of 60% or higher, but will instruct potential donors to return "well hydrated" to determine if they then qualify.

jim

 

[roastdawg]

A crit of 54% is WNL and does NOT mandate donation.

Whether someone should donate blood as a means of lowering AAS thrombotic risk is based upon three primary risk factors namely;

1) blood viscosity
2) hypercoagubility
3) vascular stasis

And all of these can be influenced by hydration status.

Finally as of 2016 the ARC will not accept blood from those with crits of 60% or higher, but will instruct potential donors to return "well hydrated" to determine if they then qualify.

jim

Jim, what are the parameters you'd look at as far as blood work goes to determine when it's time to donate? 54% is flagged as out of range on tests I've taken. What other markers do you look at? Platelets maybe? Thanks

 

[Dr JIM]

That’s a good question but the risk of an elevated H/H is much more complicated than the H//H itself.

There are other factors at play here that the PED led bandaid approach to blood letting does not remedy or address.

Folk must evaluate the CV risk
of AAS, bc that’s the primary
difference bt aerobicslly confitioned atheletes, folk living at high altitude and the risk posed by AAS.

All things being equal, and they rarely are, blood donation should be strongly considered once the crit reaches 58%.

Jim

 

[Dr JIM]

That’s a good question but the risk of an elevated H/H is much more complicated than the H//H itself.

All things being equal, and they rarely are, blood donation should be strongly considered once the crit reaches 58%.

Jim

I cringe when even I make statements of this nature wo qualifiers,

So would this necessarily apply to an asymptomatic healthy 26 year old
who is a competitie BB 6mos out of the year? NOOOO!

How about a 42 year old on TRT with a baseline crit of 52% yet is also healthy and wo cardiac risk factors ----- that would depend upon how TRT effected his quality of life vs the development of symptoms

Or how about the obese 38 year old with DM, who was placed on TRT by some clinic and now has exertional SOB and a crit of 58% ? Once a metabolic/cardiopulmonary source of his SOB has been ruled out then yes, but only if he demonstrates a clear understanding of TRT risks .

The point, bc outliers tend to be the rule rather than the exception, a one size fits all approach doesn't very well here.

JIM
.

 

[Ironlord]

^^^^ @Dr JIM quoted himself.
Interesting topic. I've always applied the bandaid approach. It's interesting to see this side of the issue

 

[MisterSuperGod]

Above 18.5 ish...red cross wont take blood above 20 i think.

Correct, 20 is their cut off. Looking back through my donation history (blood donor app) my highest yet was 18.5.

 

[DrankSlangin]

Hmmm well maybe I shouldn’t feel pressured to donate every 2 months after all. Highest my hematocrit has been is 49 and that was after blasting a gram of test and 700mg npp for 3 months. Typically it’s 44-47.

 

[roastdawg]

I cringe when even I make statements of this nature wo qualifiers,

So would this necessarily apply to an asymptomatic healthy 26 year old
who is a competitie BB 6mos out of the year? NOOOO!

How about a 42 year old on TRT with a baseline crit of 52% yet is also healthy and wo cardiac risk factors ----- that would depend upon how TRT effected his quality of life vs the development of symptoms

Or how about the obese 38 year old with DM, who was placed on TRT by some clinic and now has exertional SOB and a crit of 58% ? Once a metabolic/cardiopulmonary source of his SOB has been ruled out then yes, but only if he demonstrates a clear understanding of TRT risks .

The point, bc outliers tend to be the rule rather than the exception, a one size fits all approach doesn't very well here.

JIM
.

Your first two examples, the 26 yr old bb and the 42 yr old on trt, when you say no to them are you saying no blood donations even with a crit of 58? And yes to blood letting for the obese 38 yr old since his risk factor is higher?

 

[Dr JIM]

I’m not saying they shouldn’t donate but the absence of cardiac risk factors and symptoms places them in a relatively low risk category for thrombotic complications.

Diabetics are at high risk for thrombotic complications and
donation is warranted IMO.

Jim

 

[Gbro]

I donate when my face starts turning red.

 

[Dr JIM]

Your first two examples, the 26 yr old bb and the 42 yr old on trt, when you say no to them are you saying no blood donations even with a crit of 58? And yes to blood letting for the obese 38 yr old since his risk factor is higher?

Part of the problem is the dogma surrounding blood donation on PED forums. Cyclists are generally low risk for VTE bc of their age alone.

Heck to my knowledge repetitive donation has not been shown to reduce the risk of thromboembolism in higher risk TRT folk so why is blood letting being propagated a an effective form of risk reduction in cyclists.

Those who run AAS or TRT almost always reach a new H/H baseline
and blood donation does not change that. (The new baseline varies widely but only a minority of TRT folk exceed a crit of greater than 54%)

So why do some cyclists note improved exercise tolerance after donating blood? Cardiopulmonary dysfunction, and IF that is the case we better wake up and catch the chicken rather than the egg!

JIM

 

[AIRBORNE DADDY]

Finally an answer on whether ur levels will creep back up shorly after a donation...makes sense, ur still taking hormones it will go right back up. I wonder if it's a week later or six weeks later...

 

[Dr JIM]

Finally an answer on whether ur levels will creep back up shorly after a donation...makes sense, ur still taking hormones it will go right back up. I wonder if it's a week later or six weeks later...

Individual variation aside, which must not be ignored, somewhere in neighborhood of 8-12 weeks which is why blood donation is usually NOT indicated in 12 week on off cycles and also explains why those who “blast n cruise” are more prone to develop erythrocytosis. (120 days is the average lifespan of an RBC)

B&C folk pose another challenge, in part bc studies of others which such high crits are limited to those with inherited blood disorders such as hemochromatosis and polycythemia Vera, neither of which are can be relied upon as comparative AAS control data.

However I would be remiss to discount a persistently elevated
crit of 60% or higher as an isolated thrombotic risk factor.

To that end, crits in that range
more likely than not warrant directed donation regardless of risk factors or symptoms.

Of course a more simplified and risk adverse approach warrants greater emphasis on PED forums, which includes lowering the anabolic dosage, AND the use of ASA (81mg QD) for those with elevated crits.


Jim

 

[Robfromga]

The TRT physicians I know, prescribe test to improve a patients quality of life, which must be weighed against the potential risks. Yet NONE submit to this PED led notion of routine
blood letting.

Physicians harming patients, spare me, as a read Meso’s pages
I know who is harming who, and it’s damn sure not doctors.

It’s comments like yours that contributed to AAS being listed as scheduled substances, since no doc is willing
to risk their license for post teen experimentation or get sued once that experiment fails

You're part of the problem Dr Angry . You honestly think there's not some bad doctors in the world? You think WAY to highly of yourself. Wonder why there's a cut off number for healthy RBC? Wonder why we all feel better after a donation?

Seriously, you might be a wealth of knowledge, but you're just another narcissistic dick . If I'm the reason for illegal peds, then you're the poster child for why people don't trust doctors and lawyers .