HGH, T3, & the Thyroid

solo47

New Member
10+ Year Member
Some confusion here with regards to hGH & T3 use and the thyroid. This has never been the best forum for GH information (unless I give it;)), but I'm going to ask this anyway: GH is said to sometimes shut down thyroid activity. To counter this, it is suggested that cycles of T3 be run. T3 mimics the effects of Thyroid activity so all sides from lack of thyroid activity are now covered. But by doing this, won't T3 use also shut down the thyroid, so when the T3 is stopped, one will be worse off than before? What, exactly, does T3 do for one when on a GH run?

Solo
 
The short answers to your questions are:
1) yes, yet the suppression of TSH is Thyroxine dosage dependent
2) that depends, upon the answer to number one
3) probably nothing, except symptoms of hyperthyroidism
regards
jim
 
AND NOW THE LONG ANSWER
Although a few develop abnormal TFT's (thyroid function studies) suggestive of hypothyroidism while supplementing GH, three characteristics determine wether thyroxine supplementation is warranted namely;
FIRST and foremost is the patient symptomatic or do they have "subclinical hypothyroidism" which the majority would agree (IMO) should not be treated with supplementation.
SECOND, does the patient have a pre-diagnosis of hypopituitarism, commonly seen in children such that symptoms of clinical hypothyroidism are masked, (since most hormonal levels would be grossly abnormal creating a diagnostic quandary treatment should be considered, earlier).
THIRD, is the patients thyroid function tests diagnostic of hypothyroidism alone, (apparently uncommon and probably rare, in adults treated and followed for YEARS but more common in kido's with growth failure)
Now the marvelous thing about working with BB and lifters is they "know thyself" such that some of the more common symptoms of hypothyroidism which may be relatively nonspecific in others can become specific and quite worrisome for those "in tune with their body" and on GH therapy such as; weakness, fatigue, cold intolerance, weight gain, decreased appetite, cold intolerance, etc.
SO NOW WHAT THE F......!
I obtain a baseline TFT's, on ALL patients prior to beginning GH supplementation
I repeat the tests between 3-6 months post therapy and periodically afterward depending upon symptoms
I begin with "low dose" supplementation if the following occur; abnormal TFT's and
a symptomatic patient.
Ultimately, after treating several hundred adult patients with "growth hormone deficiency", I believe the incidence of clinical hypothyroidism (especially symptomatic) is very low in ADULTS treated with GH, and the literature clearly supports me. Moreover, in my experience EVERY patient whom was euthyroid from the outset and subsequently developed "hypothyroidism" after being placed on GH, discontinued supplementation shortly thereafter, because of intolerable (I just don't feel right doc") hyperthyroidism side effects.
Hope this helps.
Best regards
JIM
 
Thanks, Jim. So the danger is hyperthyroidism when running GH (which I have been doing for quite some time now), not shutting off the thyroid?

I don't know if that is the problem or not, but I have been experiencing extreme fatigue, shortness of breath to the point that climbing the stairs makes me stop and gasp. My head feels like it's stuffed with styrofoam most of the time. I still work out, but I take long breaks between sets (unlike me). Especially if my insides are full, I am just out of it.

Been to my doctor about this who has had me do a full blood test work-up, had chest x-rays, done CT-scans of my organs (including testes), and, of course, checked my blood pressure. According to her, I should feel just fine: everything is working well. But I don't, so I've ordered some T3 thinking maybe it's my thyroid.

Currently running 3.3 iu of good hGH ED, 600 mg EQ EW, 750 Test e EW, & 200 Tren e EW, along with 25 mg of Aromasin EOD & 500 iu of HCG 2x EW. I should feel energized and roaring to go! (I should note these symptoms were present before I began the current AAS cycle, so I had hoped the steroids would cure them!)

Possible for the T3 to help?

Respects,
Solo
 
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Could these be symptoms of high RBC? I had this problem before but staying off roids (which I hated) and giving blood lowered this successfully.

Could these be symptoms of high prolactin? Don't think Test e, EQ, along with Aromasin could cause this, but I believe hGH can.

Had mild pneumonia back in March, but the doc says it is now gone. However, my lungs still feel constricted. Could this be a factor?

Solo
 
I had your symptoms exactly when my rbc skyrocketed. I do also think you could be right in assume thyroid problems. When I did a short run of t3 recently I feel shitty for about a week once I discontinued use until my body readjusted. Once again my symptoms were very similar to yours. Did they check your thyroid? How long have you been supplementing hgh? Perhaps your body needs some down time where you cycle off for a bit?
 
I had your symptoms exactly when my rbc skyrocketed. I do also think you could be right in assume thyroid problems. When I did a short run of t3 recently I feel shitty for about a week once I discontinued use until my body readjusted. Once again my symptoms were very similar to yours. Did they check your thyroid? How long have you been supplementing hgh? Perhaps your body needs some down time where you cycle off for a bit?
Much appreciation for your response, MPM. What can I do for the high RBC, aside from coming off all supplements (which I would only do if I were felled like an oak)? I could give blood then mark the blood not to be used, but then the local blood bank might never accept me again. Besides, donating blood is a short term solution, I believe.

So the T3 helped you at least temporarily? Good to know. I may take a low dose continuously just to keep going. Been through four kits of hGH and have just bought four more.

Guess I could get my rather ignorant doctor to do BW for RBC, thyroid, and maybe even LH & FSH, but I know the latter two are practically non-existent. I'd get her to check prolactin levels, too. Make sense?

Man, it would be great to wake up feeling rough & ready like not so long ago, & to reach late afternoon without walking in my sleep!

Solow:(
 
SOLO, if you have not had a cardiac evaluation done DO IT NOW!
I don't mean an EKG and a blood studies but rather
"risk stratification" with a treadmill test, thallium myoview, heart catheterization?
 
SOLO, if you have not had a cardiac evaluation done DO IT NOW!
I don't mean an EKG and a blood studies but rather
"risk stratification" with a treadmill test, thallium myoview, heart catheterization?

Me no comprendez. I mean my doc has done the stethoscope, checked my BP, and checked my BW (to some extent), and looked at my organs with CT scans & ultrasound. I don't know exactly what you're suggesting, Dr. Jim. Is there a name for this sort of testing — cardiac evaluation? (It's beginning to seem like high RBC is likely.)

Solo
 
Solo,
Although GH supplementation can cause lowered T-3 and or T-4 levels suggestive of HYPOTHYROIDISM, levothyroxine
treatment is primarily indicated if symptoms of depressed thyroid function are also present. If patients "lowered TFS" are treated with "thyroid medicine" exclusively and regardless of symptomatology, HYPERTHYROIDISM may develop.
An elevated RBC count can be a basis for some of the symptoms you describe, but hyperprolactinemia I seriously doubt.
Could hypothyroidism from GH use result in these complaints, sure, but that won't kill you!
Pardon me, but I often think of the worst diagnosis (even though it may not be the most likely) foremost and determine if more common yet non-life threatening conditions exist thereafter.
Beginning levothyroxine will increase your BMR, blood pressure and heart rate ALL of which increase cardiac demands. Consequently I strongly discourage adding thyroid medication at this juncture until your doctor performs TFTs and has "ruled out" a cardiac etiology as a basis for your concerns.

Best regards
Jim
 
It's called cardiac "risk stratification" which involves determining wether you have blocked heart arteries. If a blockage exists, depending on the degree of narrowing, the heart can't keep up with your exercise demands which can causes weakness, fatigue, shortness of breath especially on exertion (many of the complaints you listed)
An EXERCISE TREADMILL has been used previously but because it has certain limitations many cardiologists prefer a THALLIUM MYOVIEW. The later is similar to the CT but it looks at heart function and can determine guite well wether high grade blockages exist.
Best
Jim
 
It's called cardiac "risk stratification" which involves determining wether you have blocked heart arteries. If a blockage exists, depending on the degree of narrowing, the heart can't keep up with your exercise demands which can causes weakness, fatigue, shortness of breath especially on exertion (many of the complaints you listed)
An EXERCISE TREADMILL has been used previously but because it has certain limitations many cardiologists prefer a THALLIUM MYOVIEW. The later is similar to the CT but it looks at heart function and can determine guite well wether high grade blockages exist.
Best
Jim
Thanks, Dr Jim. I'll take your advice and see my doc next week. I'll ignore questions about prolactin, but I will ask about getting further BW done to check thyroid & RBC count. Most important I'll tell I've been advised to a cardiac evaluation (risk stratification) done with, hopefully, a "thallium myoview". Well see what she has to say. Your karma value has just increased!

Solo
 
Tell her you also have chest tightness AND shortness of breath when you work out, which is an approximation of what you posted earlier, and it shall be done, NOT. Tell her you WANT a cardiology referral. No can do!!!! PM me her phone number, seriously.
Best regards
Jim
 
Tell her you also have chest tightness AND shortness of breath when you work out, which is an approximation of what you posted earlier, and it shall be done, NOT. Tell her you WANT a cardiology referral. No can do!!!! PM me her phone number, seriously.
Best regards
Jim
Can you rephrase, Jim? Tell her I would like a full cardiac evaluation (though I, personally, do not think that will turn out to be the problem)?

Thanks for your patience.

Solo
 
Solo
Get a cardiologist to evaluate you (whom is VERY likely to order a cardiac study) or a stress thallium study
done thru your primary doc, makes no difference, just make sure your hearts not the problem.
Best
Jim
 
Solo
Get a cardiologist to evaluate you (whom is VERY likely to order a cardiac study) or a stress thallium study
done thru your primary doc, makes no difference, just make sure your hearts not the problem.
Best
Jim

I'm taking this discussion over to the Men's Health Forum. I can't believe what blood tests found: I am very low on iron, deficient in fact, and my RBC is low. I'm fucking anemic! Very strange since just last summer my RBC was so high I went off cycle and gave blood twice to bring it down (and it worked). Since my diet is plentiful in iron, the doc suspects internal bleeding (though a stool sample a few months ago revealed no blood). My gut is distended (not fat) and I do get small seizures in two different places that look like muscle hernias but are sudden & painful then slowly subside and disappear. I'm getting tubes put down into my gut to take pictures, I guess (yippee!:mad:). And I'm still going to get checked by a cardiologist even though my ECG was pretty good. All I want to know on this forum is whether Human Growth Hormone could be contributing to this condition (since it had started long before I began my current AAS cycle). Otherwise, I'm just tired or dizzy all the time, yet still trucking on, so I'm in the hands of the medical community (to whom, at this point, I have not revealed my steroid or hGH use).
 
To clarify things and address your original question. No hgh does cause hypothyroidism. there will be a supression in tsh and t4,



--------
Thyroid. 2008 Dec;18(12):1249-54.
Long-term effects of growth hormone replacement therapy on thyroid function in adults with growth hormone deficiency.
Losa M, Scavini M, Gatti E, Rossini A, Madaschi S, Formenti I, Caumo A, Stidley CA, Lanzi R.
Source
Department of Neurosurgery, Istituto Scientifico San Raffaele, Università Vita-Salute, Milan, Italy.
Code:
losa.marco@hsr.it
Abstract
BACKGROUND:
Clinical studies on the effect of growth hormone (GH) on thyroid function in patients with GH deficiency are contradictory. Further, the majority of published observations are limited to the first 6-12 months of GH replacement therapy. The aim of our study was to estimate the incidence of clinically relevant hypothyroidism in a cohort of patients with adult GH deficiency (AGHD) during long-term therapy with recombinant human GH (rhGH).
METHODS:
The study was designed as a retrospective collection of data on thyroid function in 49 AGHD patients of whom 44 (90%) had multiple hormone deficiency. Thirty-seven patients (76%) were on stable levothyroxine (LT4) replacement therapy (HYPO), and 12 (24%) were euthyroid (EUT). Therapy with rhGH was started at a dose of 3.5 microg/kg body weight and adjusted according to insulin-like growth factor-I (IGF-I) levels. At baseline, 6 months, 12 months, and yearly thereafter we measured free triiodothyronine (fT3), free thyroxine (fT4), thyroid-stimulating hormone, and IGF-I. Study outcome was fT4 level below the normal range (9 pmol/L), irrespectively of fT3 or thyroid-stimulating hormone levels.
RESULTS:
During a follow-up of 115 patient-years, mean fT4 level decreased significantly, although remaining within the normal range (p = 0.0242; month 48 vs. baseline). The largest decrease was between baseline and month 6, when fT4 decreased of 1.43 pmol/L (95% confidence interval, 0.33-2.53) per 1 unit (microg/kg body weight) increase in rhGH dose. The incidence of hypothyroidism was 1.2 (HYPO group) and 6.7 (EUT group) events per 100 patient-years.
CONCLUSION:
We confirm that in patients with AGHD, rhGH therapy is associated with a small, although significant, decrement of fT4 in the first 6 months of replacement therapy. However, the incidence of hypothyroidism is low. Monitoring of thyroid function during rhGH therapy is advisable, particularly in the first year of therapy when the largest decrease in fT4 occurs.


But it increase the conversion of t4 into t3 and decreases the likely hood of t4 converting into reverse t3.-


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Pediatr Res. 1981 Jan;15(1):6-9.
Action of human growth hormone (hGH) on extrathyroidal conversion of thyroxine (T4) to triiodothyronine (T3) in children with hypopituitarism.
Rezvani I, DiGeorge AM, Dowshen SA, Bourdony CJ.
Abstract
To study the action of human growth hormone (hGH) on peripheral metabolism of serum thyroxine (T4), an oral loading dose of levothyroxine (1.2 mg/m2) was administered to seven children with hypopituitarism before initiation of hGH therapy. Serum concentrations of triiodothyronine (T3), T4, reverse triiodothyronine (rT3), and thyroxine-binding globulin (TBG) capacity were measured sequentially for 6 days. The study was repeated after 4 wk of treatment with hGH. Serum concentrations of T4 were not affected by hGH therapy. In contrast, mean basal serum concentration of T3 increased significantly after treatment with hGH. Also, changes in serum concentrations of T3 and in the ratio of T3/T4 after an oral dose of levothyroxine were significantly augmented during hGH therapy. Serum concentrations of rT3 changed in the opposite direction of T3 during therapy. After treatment with hGH, the mean basal level of serum rT3 decreased, and increases in serum concentrations of rT3 after oral levothyroxine were significantly attenuated. No changes in mean serum concentrations of thyroid stimulating hormone (TSH) and TBG capacity were observed. These data suggest that administration of hGH to children with hypopituitarism enhances the extrathyroidal conversion of T4 to T3 and concomitantly decreases the serum concentration of rT3.
 
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