HGH -- What do the results look like?

[Elektrobot]

Good info in this thread

I'll be starting HGH for the first time ever in a few weeks paired with Reta for a cut.

Can you gents make sure my plan looks alright?

-- I'll probably start with 1IU HGH in the morning (subQ) fasted for a week or 2 just to hopefully mitigate bloat/ carpal tunnel symptoms before going to 2-3IU.

For fat lass should I stick to 2-3 IU fasted subQ?


Also I've heard a couple times that HGH and Reta should be taken at least 30 minutes apart -- any truth to this?

Take it at night, and after the insulin from your last meal has cleared your blood.

There is no way to know what dose until you do bloodwork. Find out what your natty igf is, and work from there. If your natty igf is 300, and you only inject enough GH for 220, you are wasting your time. If your natty number is 90, then 220 would be a huge improvement.....

Don't guess. Do bloodwork.

 

[VStar]

Yeh fine 1IU Morning + Night. I Slin dosed with 2IU - Inject, means last 1IU will be very close in dosage. All my BAC water dailys go in one slin mixxed subQ. Never come across info that this is a bad idea.

 

[AlexDavis43]

Yeh fine 1IU Morning + Night. I Slin dosed with 2IU - Inject, means last 1IU will be very close in dosage. All my BAC water dailys go in one slin mixxed subQ. Never come across info that this is a bad idea.

Take it at night, and after the insulin from your last meal has cleared your blood.

There is no way to know what dose until you do bloodwork. Find out what your natty igf is, and work from there. If your natty igf is 300, and you only inject enough GH for 220, you are wasting your time. If your natty number is 90, then 220 would be a huge improvement.....

Don't guess. Do bloodwork.

@initialize agree with much of the above but GH dose timing doesn't matter very much

If you can't get it in the exact window relative to your meals, no worries, just pin it anyway

Not gonna make a big deal in gainz/progress

 

[Elektrobot]

GH dose timing doesn't matter very much

If he's taking it for a cut, his results will be optimized by taking it at night when there isn't going to be a meal that raises insulin. This is how GH increases free fatty acids for energy and results in the fat loss results.

If insulin is present in blood, nutrients can only enter the cell. Insulin prevents lipolysis. If the goal of GH is a cut, using it when there will be insulin present in the blood is contradictory.

 

[BeardedGuy]

Ok. For a cut, as the discussion goes, here’s my current protocol, feel free to rip it apart.
Weekends I go for a fasted long walk or bike ride, (LISS), aim for 1:20, about 80 minutes. An hour before I start, I do 4iu IM,
Then, weeknights, I do 2 iu about an hour before sleep.
Most every weekday morning I do a 40 minutes fasted walk/row. LISS
Is this best for fat mobilization and burn?

 

[BigDadd7]

Ok. For a cut, as the discussion goes, here’s my current protocol, feel free to rip it apart.
Weekends I go for a fasted long walk or bike ride, (LISS), aim for 1:20, about 80 minutes. An hour before I start, I do 4iu IM,
Then, weeknights, I do 2 iu about an hour before sleep.
Most every weekday morning I do a 40 minutes fasted walk/row. LISS
Is this best for fat mobilization and burn?

It's not bad, it's not great. The weekend fasted walk is good/very smart. 2iu at night is hit or miss. It's a small dose to see any real changes. It wouldn’t hurt to do a finger prick for fasted blood sugar a few times a week just to get a baseline. Do you have a baseline IGF 1 and z score? If not, your doses are still low enough that it will be good to get them. Eventually, you're going to up those doses and you'll want something to compare to.

 

[initialize]

It's not bad, it's not great. The weekend fasted walk is good/very smart. 2iu at night is hit or miss. It's a small dose to see any real changes. It wouldn’t hurt to do a finger prick for fasted blood sugar a few times a week just to get a baseline. Do you have a baseline IGF 1 and z score? If not, your doses are still low enough that it will be good to get them. Eventually, you're going to up those doses and you'll want something to compare to.

Im not the person you replied to of course, but Im getting a baseline IGF this week before starting HGH. Is there a recommendation for how long to wait after starting HGH to recheck IGF levels?

 

[Ateam2023]

Im not the person you replied to of course, but Im getting a baseline IGF this week before starting HGH. Is there a recommendation for how long to wait after starting HGH to recheck IGF levels?

4-6 weeks will give you a good idea where your at

 

[BigDadd7]

Im not the person you replied to of course, but Im getting a baseline IGF this week before starting HGH. Is there a recommendation for how long to wait after starting HGH to recheck IGF levels?

A 3-4 weeks for IGF.

If you want to test GH response then the standard is blood draw 3 hours after 10 IU IM injection.

Start with a baseline GH and IGF-1. IGF-1 is a better test and more affordable for repeated testing as you adjust your dose. I go with IGF-1 and the z score for tracking.

 

[AlexDavis43]

If he's taking it for a cut, his results will be optimized by taking it at night when there isn't going to be a meal that raises insulin. This is how GH increases free fatty acids for energy and results in the fat loss results.

If insulin is present in blood, nutrients can only enter the cell. Insulin prevents lipolysis. If the goal of GH is a cut, using it when there will be insulin present in the blood is contradictory.

By that logic, fasted cardio should be better for fat loss because there's less insulin compared to fed cardio

But there are studies showing at the end of the day, fat loss is similar; maybe more fat burned during the fasted cardio session, but less when you refeed (assuming same total cardio and food intake)

GH is still going to work against insulin-induced fat storage & promote fat loss if you take it near a meal; compared to no GH at mealtime, max fat storage, no levers pulling in the other direction

I'm the metabolic party pooper

 

[AlexDavis43]

By that logic, fasted cardio should be better for fat loss because there's less insulin compared to fed cardio

But there are studies showing at the end of the day, fat loss is similar; maybe more fat burned during the fasted cardio session, but less when you refeed (assuming same total cardio and food intake)

GH is still going to work against insulin-induced fat storage & promote fat loss if you take it near a meal; compared to no GH at mealtime, max fat storage, no levers pulling in the other direction

I'm the metabolic party pooper

That said, if you avoid eating late at night because that's when you're dosing GH, and this inadvertently causes you to eat less overall, go for it

 

[BigDadd7]

By that logic, fasted cardio should be better for fat loss because there's less insulin compared to fed cardio

But there are studies showing at the end of the day, fat loss is similar; maybe more fat burned during the fasted cardio session, but less when you refeed (assuming same total cardio and food intake)

GH is still going to work against insulin-induced fat storage & promote fat loss if you take it near a meal; compared to no GH at mealtime, max fat storage, no levers pulling in the other direction

I'm the metabolic party pooper

His logic isnt necessarily wrong. It's just that at lower levels, the difference is not significant. At 10-12 iu, timing matters much more. At 2-4, just go with convenience.

 

[Elektrobot]

By that logic, fasted cardio should be better for fat loss

Yes

there are studies showing at the end of the day, fat loss is similar

for general population people, yes. We aren't general population.

GH is still going to work against insulin-induced fat storage

Insulin does not allow lipolysis to happen, GH does not change that.


Insulin prevents lipolysis. If lipolysis is your goal, don't waste your gh during times that you will have insulin in your blood. GH doesn't magically make insulin suddenly allow lipolysis. When insulin is in your blood, cell walls become a one way door. Stuff can only go into the cell. For lipolysis, we need stuff to come out of the cell....... and that requires the absence of insulin.

 

[Elektrobot]

That said, if you avoid eating late at night because that's when you're dosing GH, and this inadvertently causes you to eat less overall, go for it

The instructions for Serostim which is prescribed to aids patients to reduce visceral fat is to take it at night before bed. Pretty sure the scientists who devised that knew what they were doing. The instructions don't say to take it in the morning for a reason .

 

[AlexDavis43]

Insulin prevents lipolysis. If lipolysis is your goal, don't waste your gh during times that you will have insulin in your blood. GH doesn't magically make insulin suddenly allow lipolysis. When insulin is in your blood, cell walls become a one way door. Stuff can only go into the cell. For lipolysis, we need stuff to come out of the cell....... and that requires the absence of insulin.

It seems like you're talking about insulin like it's the only thing that effects lipolysis but there are many

For example, in addition to insulin: GH, catecholamines, glucagon, cortisol, natriuretic peptides, probably some others

For lipolysis, we need stuff to come out of the cell....... and that requires the absence of insulin.

There is never an absence of insulin unless you're an untreated T1D

There are also studies on keto diets that show they only cause more fat loss when food intake is reduced compared to higher carb diets

 

[Elektrobot]

It seems like you're talking about insulin like it's the only thing that effects lipolysis but there are many

Just keeping it simple. The primary role of high insulin levels is to prevent, not trigger, lipolysis. Taking GH for the PRIMARY goal of a cut, as the person who started this topic stated as their goal..... is most effective when used before a long stretch of not eating. Because elevated insulin levels inhibit lipolysis.

Insulin Inhibits Lipolysis in Adipocytes via the Evolutionarily Conserved mTORC1-Egr1-ATGL-Mediated Pathway - PMC

One of the basic functions of insulin in the body is to inhibit lipolysis in adipocytes. Recently, we have found that insulin inhibits lipolysis and promotes triglyceride storage by decreasing transcription of adipose triglyceride lipase via the ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Anti-Lipolysis Induced by Insulin in Diverse Pathophysiologic Conditions of Adipose Tissue - PMC

As an important energy reservoir, adipose tissue maintains lipid balance and regulates energy metabolism. When the body requires energy, adipocytes provide fatty acids to peripheral tissues through lipolysis. Insulin plays an important role in ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

There is never an absence of insulin unless you're an untreated T1D

My short example came across as hyperbolic.

There are also studies on keto diets that show they only cause more fat loss when food intake is reduced compared to higher carb diets

I've never read up on keto
If a keto diet creates more fat loss when food intake is reduced vs a reduced intake non-keto diet...... wouldn't that suggest that less insulin contributes to more fat loss?

Never dabbled in keto. Have no experience. Just deducing an opinion based on what you wrote about it.

 

[AlexDavis43]

There are also studies on keto diets that show they only cause more fat loss when food intake is reduced compared to higher carb diets

I've never read up on keto
If a keto diet creates more fat loss when food intake is reduced vs a reduced intake non-keto diet...... wouldn't that suggest that less insulin contributes to more fat loss?

Never dabbled in keto. Have no experience. Just deducing an opinion based on what you wrote about it.

Maybe I didn't word that right:

Keto only results in more fat loss compared to higher carb diets when food intake is lower on the keto diet than the higher carb diet

In other words, if food intake is the same on both diets, fat loss is the same despite keto having lower insulin levels

Keto often does result in fat loss because people remove a lot of carbs and don't fully replace the calories, so they're in an energy deficit (same for people who go on a low fat diet and don't fully replace the fat calories with carbs)

 

[Deadpool99]

I'm curious what you guys think a good hgh dose is without using insulin. I usually keep my blasts at 8ius to minimize heart growth cuz I've read alot about actual measurable growth within a year of high hgh usage so I keep it at 8ius for 12 weeks then drop back to 4ius for my maintenance.

I always wondered if anyth above 8 would be worth the risk without utilizing insulin, is there benefits worth the risks to go 10ius+? cuz I just have this urge to blast 10-12ius cuz I don't face any BG/water retention/CTS issues but it seems the risk isn't worth it, atleast from what I have read but ofc alot of guys here are more experienced and knowledgeable than me.

Ofc assuming BG is perfect.

 

[BeardedGuy]

It's not bad, it's not great. The weekend fasted walk is good/very smart. 2iu at night is hit or miss. It's a small dose to see any real changes. It wouldn’t hurt to do a finger prick for fasted blood sugar a few times a week just to get a baseline. Do you have a baseline IGF 1 and z score? If not, your doses are still low enough that it will be good to get them. Eventually, you're going to up those doses and you'll want something to compare to.

My last IGF was 94 ng/mL. I think it was low. 47 male

 

[Elektrobot]

I've read alot about actual measurable growth within a year

Aids patients use 18IU's of serostim every night for years and years ..... just sayin