How long can someone be on HRT and still go back to natural?

[Astrozombie]

I know people hate long posts, so I am going to keep this brief with just the details that matter.

3 Years Ago - Showed many hypogonadism symptoms. About 50lbs overweight. I thought I was just out of shape and started working out. Through diet, exercise and working out I lost the 50lbs.

1 Year Ago - Still showing many hypogonadism signs, but now know what hypogonadism is from reading on the net. I decide to get some tests done.

Test #1 - salivatest.com (would not recommend - just get the blood test) Came in around 240

Test #2 - From my GP - I believe it was 208. I asked him about HRT - he was reluctant. Told me to take 100mg DHEA daily for 2 months and then come back.

Test #3 - Can't remember the exact results, but in the low 200s. We start Androgel 5mg daily for 3 months. I feel a bit better.

Test #4 - Low 300s. We start Androgel 10mg daily for 3 months. I feel great.

Test #5 - Came in right at 1020. Doc says this is too high and that perhaps my natural levels have been "kick started" drops me from HRt completely.

Things are fine for about a week and then I crash. After a month I head back to the Dr. and tell him I want back on the HRT. We start with 5mg Androgel again.

Test #6 - Low 300s. Decide to go with 100mg Cyprionate 1x per week.

So I have been on the Cyp for 3 weeks now and can start to feel it kicking in. After reading here, it seems I should have been prescribed some Anti-E's in Step #5 if there was a chance to get my natural system going again. I'm wondering if I should go back to the Dr. and tell him I want to drop or taper off the Cyp and begin with Anti-Es, or is it too late since I've been on HRT for almost a year. I guess the simple question is at what point does your natural production shut down for good? BTW - 33 years old if it matters.

 

[mranak]

What happened with the Androgel is something that people have reported numerous times in the past. I really don't believe the big increase was your own system kicking back in.

My advice is to stick with the testosterone cypionate for now, but when you get your next blood test, try and get your doctor to run an estradiol test as well. If LabCorp does your bloodwork, then the best estradiol test is called "estradiol, sensitive", not "estradiol."

However, unless your estradiol is very elevated (which is difficult with low testosterone), I don't believe that an anti-E2 (an Aromtase Inhibitor) would likely do much to boost your testosterone levels. Perhaps when you mention "Anti-E" you mean a SERM such as Clomid or Nolvadex though?

 

[earthdog]

Mranak's right, you should get the correct estradiol test as well as a broader battery of tests in general (see stickies above), but chances are pretty good that if your T was suppressed and it wasn't because of AAS/prohormone use or any other temporary cause, then you're supressed for life and you need to be on TRT for life. Don't let what I just said stop you from trying to get off TRT if that is your goal, though. If you try to get off TRT and fail, then the worst thing that could happen would be you go back on TRT and stay there, lean, smart and happy (sorry I couldn't resist).

Some people have sucessfully "jump started" their T after supression due to long-term AAS use. That might be roughly analagous to your situation since you have been on testosterone of some sort for a while, although much lower doses. Do a search on jump start to see some of the posts. But it seems to me that there are far more questions on how to jump start than there are guys posting that they have done it sucessfully. And like I said, if you were supressed to begin with.... well...

 

[Astrozombie]

Ok, thanks for the advice guys.

I don't have any history of AAS usage, and took a small amount of pro-hormones through a supplement called "Mag10" (Waste of time BTW) when I was begining my workout program, but didn't even know it was a pro-hormone and I only used it for 4 weeks, so I doubt that had any long term effect on me. (My blood tests were over a year later)

My estridol tests showed normal the last time we tested them. I do get my tests done by Labcorp, so I'll ask for the sensitive test the next time we test which should be in about three months.

If I'm on HRT for life then so be it. The injections seem to work a lot better for me than the gel. About 5 mins 1x per week and I'm done with it. There are some minor problems with the injections, but I'm working those out. The gel used to make my skin break out slightly, would stick to my shirts if I didn't let it dry long enough, and make me itch like crazy. Plus putting it on daily was a constant reminder of my condition.

Anyway I am glad to be here on this forum with such knowledgeable people. Thanks for having me.

 

[pmgamer18]

The problem I had with the gels and getting a blood test was if I put on the gel before the test it would spike my test. I now know why I was getting it on my arm were they stick in the needle. But I am now on Depo T shots also doing 100 mgs a week. As for high E2 I have this problem and take OTC Indolplex/DIM and I am finding that taking a 1/2 a pill a day is working dam good at keeping my E2 under control.

I am getting my shots at my Dr.'s office it was costing me $9.00 but my insurance has changed and now if is a $1.72 per shot.
Phil

 

[Astrozombie]

pmgamer: I am on the same dosage. What kind of syringe are they using? One of the problems I am running into is that I was given syringes that hold 3CC and I have to meaure out 1/2CC and it is tough because who knows how much is in that piece by the needle. I want to make sure I am getting the exact dose every time.

Also, why not do the injections yourself? I went to the Dr. and they gave me a lesson on how to do them myself. The first one was tough, but by the third one I am doing fine.

My only challenge on the injections is that I did the first two in the butt and after reading some info here I thought I may have just injected it into the fat and not into the muscle. They didn't hurt at all.

Yesterday I did the third one into my theigh and there was slight discomfort when breaking the skin and then a little pain when the needle went through the muscle (I didn't wiggle it around or anything). After the injection and even today there is a bit of muscle soreness at the injection site. This is what others are saying so I think maybe I should use the theigh from now on.

 

[pmgamer18]

We well if I stay on the shots things look good so far. But I have tried different kinds of TRT and my BCBS sends me a 90 day supply so before I start on doing this myself I have to be sure this is the way we are going. Or I am stuck for 90 days. I don't know what syringe they are using never looked.
But the guys at this other group I am a member at use a big needle to draw out the T then switch to a smaller one to give the shot.
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/hypogonadism2/
Phil

 

[mranak]

Yeah, the 3cc syringes are what the vast majority of us use. I draw the oil with a 22G pin and then change the pin to a 25G for injection.

Yes, you are correct about the oil between the 0cc mark and the pin itself. It isn't much, and the plunger doens't push all of that oil out the pin either (thus, a bit is wasted). The important thing is that you are consistant week to week. I would recommend you simply pull the oil to the .5 cc mark, or maybe just a little less if that is what you prefer.

 

[Matt Muscle]

Test #2 - From my GP - I believe it was 208. I asked him about HRT - he was reluctant. Told me to take 100mg DHEA daily for 2 months and then come back.


Test #5 - Came in right at 1020. Doc says this is too high and that perhaps my natural levels have been "kick started" drops me from HRt completely.

Things are fine for about a week and then I crash. After a month I head back to the Dr. and tell him I want back on the HRT. We start with 5mg Androgel again.

.

What was the DHEA supposed to do??

Your on 10 mgs of androgel and he says he thinks your natural levels have kicked back in??? huh? Thats the first time i have heard that androgel kick starts the HPTA.. while your on it!!
I think your high reading was from too much Androgel....

So he takes you off all TRT and you crashed.... im not surprised.

 

[SWALE]

I would start out by NOT relying on this physician for your TRT. Everything he has done so far has been wrong.

You DO NOT EVER start out a patient on a huge dose of Androgel.

DO NOT take more than 50mg of DHEA per day. Doing so only elevates estrogen. Males cannot raise T levels with DHEA.

A highly suppressive dose of TRT will not jump start your system. Your high androgen levels were cuased by the innappropriate Androgel dosing.

Unfortunatley, there is no good answer to your question. Everyone is different.


I'd get labs--including estrogen levels, at the 5 week mark to see where things are at.

 

[Astrozombie]

I'll get some more tests done in a couple of weeks as recommended. I also think I may have been injecting into the fat in my butt rather than the muscle, because I did the injection in the theigh 3 days ago and I feel much better now, better than I did before like when I was on the 10mg Androgel.

 

[SWALE]

I do not agree with fat injections for oil-based medications.

 

[greatgro]

I do not agree with fat injections for oil-based medications.

Swale I think he is saying that he might have been injecting into fat when injecting into his glute while injecting into the thigh makes him feel better. He doesn't WANT to inject into fat. He's trying to inject in the muscle. So he is switching to the thigh b/c he thinks he's more likely to inject into muscle.

 

[Astrozombie]

Correct. I knew to inject into the muscle, and while I am at probably 10-12% BF I think I may have been injecting into the fat on accident. The reason being is that I didn't get the sore feeling many have described. When I injected with the theigh I got the sore feeling people talk about, and within 24 hours felt a big boost.

 

[buck]

With that kind of body fat I would think that you would have had to inject into the muscle unless you were using an insulin pin. If an inject is done well there is little to no pain. Especially when iinjected in the glute. IMO

 

[Astrozombie]

I waited a while to respond because I did my next injection about 36 hours ago. I can definitely feel a difference. Either I was injecting into fat, or not deep enough with the glute, or it took two weeks for this stuff to kick in.

The only downside I see to the theigh is that it is more painful. I was very careful this time to ensure I didn't move the needle around and tear muscle tissue, but 36 hours later the area is a bit sore, similar to a slight "charlie horse".

One other thing I noticed using the theigh rather than the glute is that I can "feel it working". About 5 mins after the injection my theigh gets cramped which lasts for about 15 - 30 minutes. Nothing serious, but I think I can feel it moving into the muscle.