HRT with Clomid instead of hcg

[Pushing60]

I am older than most of you guys. I am on doctor prescribed HRT.

Previously, I was on Andriol (4 caps per day). A few months ago I convinced my doc to switch me to 200mg Test Cyp every two weeks (as per the Physician's Desk Reference). My doc told me that my balls would shrink.

Initially I really used 100mg EW and my balls did shrink. I do not expect to ever be able to convince my doc to prescribe hcg, so I was looking for an alternative.

Now I use 50mg Test Cyp every 3.5 days and 25mg Clomid ED. My balls returned to normal size and I really feel great. I have no known bad side effects from my use of Clomid.

Please tell me what you think. Can I continue with the Clomid long term or would I be better off with the Test only.

Thanks

 

[earthdog]

That's very interesting. Do you happen to have any recent lab results, since you have been on Clomid and T, that you would be willing to post? How is libido?

 

[Pushing60]

Libido is high. It will be months before a few lab results become available.

 

[Matt Muscle]

I am older than most of you guys. I am on doctor prescribed HRT.

Previously, I was on Andriol (4 caps per day). A few months ago I convinced my doc to switch me to 200mg Test Cyp every two weeks (as per the Physician's Desk Reference). My doc told me that my balls would shrink.

Initially I really used 100mg EW and my balls did shrink. I do not expect to ever be able to convince my doc to prescribe hcg, so I was looking for an alternative.

Now I use 50mg Test Cyp every 3.5 days and 25mg Clomid ED. My balls returned to normal size and I really feel great. I have no known bad side effects from my use of Clomid.

Please tell me what you think. Can I continue with the Clomid long term or would I be better off with the Test only.

Thanks

Another guy on SBI; French BB said he tried clomid for just 15 days whilst on TRT and has said the same thing as you.. actually he feels that the clomid restored the size of his testes better than HCG. He continued to feel the positive effects for another 4 weeks after the 15 day run of clomid. His libido and erection quality was much improved.
He is about to try another 15 days to see if the result can be replicated.

 

[mranak]

Your serum testosterone levels are probably supraphysiological now. As for the clomid, there seems to be lack of sufficient data on long-term use of SERMs in male patients. If I recall, SWALE himself is uncertain about long-term use of a SERM (e.g. Clomid, Nolvadex).

 

[Kroms_laugh]

Your serum testosterone levels are probably supraphysiological now.

That's exactly what I was thinking. Before I tried clomid my test levels were 283 (normal: 271-820). I did a 60 day cycle of Clomid 50mg a day, and had levels done up during the treatment... they were: Testosterone 1107 (271-820). Now imagine if I were on TRT at the same time... I think I would have been around 1800ng/dl. But since you are taking only 25mg daily... I don't suspect it to be that high, but I would expect your to be somewhere around 1200ng/dl, given a 'normal' scale of 300-1000ng/dl.

If normal were 300-1000ng/dl... as per Swale's protocol, you'd want to be somwhere in the 550-800nd/dl range.

 

[Pushing60]

Thank you all for your input.

In short, I gather that adding some Clomid to my HRT test is about equivalent to injecting more test without Clomid.

With the Clomid my balls dont shrink. Also, the Clomid make me feel real good. I dont know if I would feel this good with more test and no Clomid.

If you (the reader) have an opinion about the above, please share it. Does anybody else have more data such as Kroms that they can share?

Thanks

 

[BigRagu]

yea but u have to remember something .... when your on clomid and not on hrt your natural system is still functional..... if your on test it's not......... i could be wrong and some tell me if i am but i don't believe clomid would stimulate the testis as hcg while on test.........

 

[Matt Muscle]

yea but u have to remember something .... when your on clomid and not on hrt your natural system is still functional..... if your on test it's not......... i could be wrong and some tell me if i am but i don't believe clomid would stimulate the testis as hcg while on test.........

well... thats what I thought too... but from recent accounts from people taking clomid whilst on TRT it would seem that it does indeed keep the testes quite active... possibly working from both angles LH and FSH??... hCG being just an LH analogue. I am sure if there is FSH being produced as well... libido must be affected positively. It stands to reason that fertility is closely interlinked with libido.

 

[Weatherlite]

It stands to reason that fertility is closely interlinked with libido.

I can only say that I've never had much of a libido and even when it was at its lowest I was still quite fertile. I have a kid to prove it!

 

[mranak]

With the Clomid my balls dont shrink. Also, the Clomid make me feel real good. I dont know if I would feel this good with more test and no Clomid.

You can try the clomid without the testosterone. Clomid doesn't give the beneficial effects for most people, but maybe you are different.

For long-term use, I think I would prefer Nolvadex over Clomid, but I don't have any scientific information to back that up.

 

[Stez]

But nolva only stops estrogen from binding. If you're on testosterone then it won't help stimulate your natural production of test, whereas clomid will.

That's my really shithouse explanation of it anyway

 

[Matt Muscle]

I can only say that I've never had much of a libido and even when it was at its lowest I was still quite fertile. I have a kid to prove it!

Absolutly.. you can be quite fertile and still have a low libido... My point was more in regard to TRT... testosterone on its own quite often not being enough to stimulate libido... gonadatrophins responsible for natural T production and fertilty such as LH and FSH, must have a role in our sex drive.. especially the physical libido.. Hcg proves this with the response from so many that use it and report how it improves thier "libido"....

 

[SWALE]

You can indeed raise LH levels with drugs of the SERM class. I have often thought of using it long term as PART of a TRT protocol (it has no value when taken alone as far as subjective benefits go for nearly everyone).

However, I just am not comfortable with the idea of taking a drug from this class long-term.

I must add, though, that your dosing is appropriate. Most use way too much of these drugs. 25mg per day is a whalloping dose.

 

[Pushing60]

Swale, thank you very much for your input.

I am confused about your opinion on the dosage. Your last paragraph suggests that a Clomid dosage of 25mg/day is appropriate, but then you say that 25mg/day of Clomid is a whalloping dose.

Can the dosage be both appropriate and whalloping at the same time?

Thanks

 

[DLMCBBB]

Dr. Crisler,

I have noticed, the past few days people are indicating their T is high while on clomid. I thought any increase in T, exo or endo will affect LH levels? Wouldn't that make clomid just as supressive PCT as compared to hCG? The first few days on clomid I feel great, and the boys come back. But I noticed after a week, I dont feel the same, and the boys atrophy, and it takes a good time off clomid for them to fully come back. Im thinking myself, and the bros are taking too much of this SERM, potentially causing us to be supressive again. What are your thoughts?

Dustin

 

[Matt Muscle]

Dr. Crisler,

I have noticed, the past few days people are indicating their T is high while on clomid. I thought any increase in T, exo or endo will affect LH levels? Wouldn't that make clomid just as supressive PCT as compared to hCG? The first few days on clomid I feel great, and the boys come back. But I noticed after a week, I dont feel the same, and the boys atrophy, and it takes a good time off clomid for them to fully come back. Im thinking myself, and the bros are taking too much of this SERM, potentially causing us to be supressive again. What are your thoughts?

Dustin

How much are you taking?
clomid has a stimulatory effect on the HPTA, Whereas hCG is just an LH analogue. Clomid Inhibits the negative feedback of Estrogen on the HPTA...

 

[DLMCBBB]

Matt,

100mg for 2 weeks. I don't even know why I took it for that long, after day 4, I had dimished returns. The first few days were the best, and went downhill from there. I see some people on other boards going as high on the first day as 300mg, I think even Bill Roberts writes about that protocl in good light. I know hCG is an LH analog, but so what. Clomid will sponsor LH also downstream from its stimulatory effect. So it would seem that clomid is just as supressive as hCG with regards to increasing LH, leading to increased T. I do agree what swale says, that clomid will "prime the pump" at the pituitary level. So I think one is much better off with clomid PCT, than without it. I just thought any increase in T, no matter what the source is, is going to alter LH, eventually leading to full supression. Again, how is clomid working for people on HRT, or even on AAS? In theory, it shouldnt help, which is why we pay attention to half lives for the ideal time to start clomid therapy. Something is going on here, what it is I am not sure yet. What do you think is going on?

 

[SWALE]

I guess I would have better said "even 25mg per day is a whalloping dose".

It is made in reference to the 100, 150, even 300mg per day you hear recommended by those who know not of what they speak. All it takes is 25mg per day--and you must taper that when you come off.

 

[Pushing60]

Swale, Thank you so much for the reassuring clarification.

I will try to pick your brain some more. I have seen the blood tests that you prescribe to your patients and I have read almost everything that you have contributed to the site.

Would you add any tests for someone on HRT like me who also takes 25mg Clomid ED? Would you pay any extra special attention to any test result?

Thanks a lot.