If you only lose as much as you are in a deficit, what’s the point of GH for fat loss?

[trenisbest]

Thinking of incorporating some GH into my Reta + Cag stack during my PSMF. Would the benefits of adding it in be? I see that GH is mentioned a lot for fat loss, but you will only fat as big as your deficit, so what is the actual benefit here? Does it actually help preserve muscle mass, especially in a large deficit, therefore you lose more fat since less comes from muscle stores? Am I missing something here?

Appreciate any input.

 

[Ghoul]

Thinking of incorporating some GH into my Reta + Cag stack during my PSMF. Would the benefits of adding it in be? I see that GH is mentioned a lot for fat loss, but you will only fat as big as your deficit, so what is the actual benefit here? Does it actually help preserve muscle mass, especially in a large deficit, therefore you lose more fat since less comes from muscle stores? Am I missing something here?

Appreciate any input.

What you are missing is that higher levels of GH liberates free fatty acids more than lower levels would, especially from fat deposits that have gone “deaf” and don’t respond easily to lipolysis signaling, especially visceral fat in men. The older you are (with declining GH) the more pronounced this effect is.

But if you don’t dispose of these FFAs by being in a net deficit the excess not burned off via exercise will redeposit as the GH wears off over time or insulin rises post meal ending the enhanced lipolysis.

So no free ride but it tips the balance strongly in favor of fat loss, which the body resists.

The IGF-1 effect from GH creates a “pro-anabolic” environment in muscle protecting lean mass and making it somewhat easier to build muscle. Encourages protein synthesis and increases amount and sensitivity of androgen receptors.

 

[Ghoul]

Would 2iu daily be enough to see the benefits of improved lipolysis or should I be planning on working my way up to 4-6iu to see true benefits? Thank you

rHGH is a long game, first and foremost, months to really see a clear effect. However, once people see the payoff (in body composition, along with improved skin, hair, nails, VO2max, cognition, metabolism),, they tend to become lifelong users.

2iu in the vast majority will have a decent effect, but the higher the better. 4iu is typically very good over 4-6 months.

This is largely dependent on your age and baseline IGF-1.

I can’t emphasize this strongly enough. Get a baseline IGF-1 test. $30. Then follow up IGF-1 levels will guide your dose from then on. Some people can use no more than 2iu safely, others 20iu. It’s highly variable and you don’t want to fly blind.

 

[trenisbest]

months to really see a clear effect.

aren’t the benefits of gh on fat loss acute though? I don’t really intent on staying on it, just thought of it as something to add for the acute fat loss benefit on a PSMF then stop.

 

[Ghoul]

aren’t the benefits of gh on fat loss acute though? I don’t really intent on staying on it, just thought of it as something to add for the acute fat loss benefit on a PSMF then stop.

One of the big pharma companies did a series of studies decades ago see if they could market rHGH for fat loss.

When it was stopped, fat mostly returned.

But for people into fitness, fat’s not returning until you’re in a surplus, something you decide.

The difference between being on or off GH when that happens is largely where it goes back to. Low GH it’s going into “central adiposity”. Surplus while on GH tends to cause a much more even and aesthetic subcutaneous depositing. Also, the window to burn off excess calories before being stored as fat is longer, and of course with resistance, the GH induced pro anabolic environment makes more lean mass gain occur, leaving less excess for fat deposits.

Staying on forever, or the longest time per year possible is why “as much as you can afford” was the mantra for GH.

At this point though, a 4iu year round supply is under $500, so you no longer have to be a millionaire to afford that. Not long ago that wasn’t enough for a month.

 

[Mfras]

Would 2iu daily be enough to see the benefits of improved lipolysis or should I be planning on working my way up to 4-6iu to see true benefits? Thank you

I’m not an expert but jumped on GH more recently after enjoying slightly faster visceral fat loss during 8 weeks on a secretagogue peptide. I’ve read a lot on the topic and tried to sort through the noise to decide on the best protocol for myself.

I’m late 40s and cutting- down under 20%bf currently from a high of 46% and have gained 20lbs muscle in that time. 90% of it was done on true TRT and nothing else- tracking cals & macros and 5 day lifting split. As things have slowed a little I started playing with reta, trt+.

What I think I’ve learned from my research is that everyone is so different in natural production and reaction to adding GH. Someone in their 20s could be lowering their numbers by turning off natural production in favor of pinning 2iu while for someone in their 50s 2iu could be the fountain of youth.

4iu seems to be recognized as a safe-ish high cruise with limited sides and visible benefits over some months. 6-8 seems to be a complimentary dose for bodybuilding gear cycles, not enough to make your heart double in size over some weeks of give you an ogre face, but probably not sustainable for months or years without seeing at least some undesirable acromegaly in your heart, feet, hands, face.

So for me my plan is 4iu during a slight trt+ cutting phase with interest in recomp if possible, I’d consider doing 6-8 for a month or three if I pushed a lean bulk as hard as possible (which for me is still way way under a gram total aas a week) and coming completely off or maybe 2-3iu cruise during health/true trt phases.

To better answer your question you’d have to try it- bloods before & during, and tape measure & dexa scans before and after along with total lb scale results, and have periods of identical diet and exercise to compare with results on the GH. That would be the only way to know what it does for you. I know the tesamorelin increased my igf-1 about 50 points to 306 and my visceral fat moved a little faster on it than off it. My results on GH are not really in yet.

Good luck, and hopefully others chime in with more experience or to correct any wrong ideas I might be putting out here- again, I’m new to GH but always do my best to learn before jamming shit in my body

 

[OldGHGuy]

rHGH is a long game, first and foremost, months to really see a clear effect. However, once people see the payoff (in body composition, along with improved skin, hair, nails, VO2max, cognition, metabolism),, they tend to become lifelong users.

2iu in the vast majority will have a decent effect, but the higher the better. 4iu is typically very good over 4-6 months.

This is largely dependent on your age and baseline IGF-1.

I can’t emphasize this strongly enough. Get a baseline IGF-1 test. $30. Then follow up IGF-1 levels will guide your dose from then on. Some people can use no more than 2iu safely, others 20iu. It’s highly variable and you don’t want to fly blind.

What is the ideal IGF-1 range?

 

[Ghoul]

What is the ideal IGF-1 range?

For fat loss (and to maximize other benefits tbh) you want to push the dose as high as possible.

That’s limited by 2 factors.

How tolerable are sides.

And IGF-1 Z score.

The Z score is really more important than the raw IGF-1 number.

Z is calculated based on your sex / age and that labs particular testing method.

Z score 0 is the mean for your demographic.

Z score 2 is the physiological limit. Doctors treating adults for GH deficiency keep it below 2.

Z score up to 3 is still safe long term.

Above 3 you start to risk acromegaly symptoms over the long term.

So you can start at 2iu, check IGF-1 z score, and if sides are tolerable, and Z below 3, you have room to safely increase dose if you want.

You can see how the same IGF-1 300 is a different Z at different ages (do NOT calculate using this chart, only the lab can provide precise Z score), Above 2 docs would reduce dose. Real risk from what studies show begins above 3.



2iu could result in IGF-1 500 in one person, and 8iu might only hit IGF-1 150 in another.

That’s why IGF-1(really Z score) not IU is what to base your dose on.

IGF-1 regulates cell growth, that’s where essentially all the risk of permanent damage is. Endocrinologists used to calculate rHGH dose as “x weight=x IUs” now it’s “start low and increase IUs based on IGF-1 / Z score”. Most would aim for a Z around 1, to be conservative. For max PED like benefits, while staying safe(ish) we”re looking for high 2.x



Roughly Z score 6 for 5 years. Enlarged organs, jaw, hands, feet etc. ON JUST 2IU

 

[trenisbest]

When it was stopped, fat mostly returned.

isn’t this the same as for example people said sema or crash dieting then coming off an binging the weight back!m? it’s got nothing to do with the discontinuation of GH right?

 

[explodingHeart]

I’m not an expert but jumped on GH more recently after enjoying slightly faster visceral fat loss during 8 weeks on a secretagogue peptide. I’ve read a lot on the topic and tried to sort through the noise to decide on the best protocol for myself.

I’m late 40s and cutting- down under 20%bf currently from a high of 46% and have gained 20lbs muscle in that time. 90% of it was done on true TRT and nothing else- tracking cals & macros and 5 day lifting split. As things have slowed a little I started playing with reta, trt+.

What I think I’ve learned from my research is that everyone is so different in natural production and reaction to adding GH. Someone in their 20s could be lowering their numbers by turning off natural production in favor of pinning 2iu while for someone in their 50s 2iu could be the fountain of youth.

4iu seems to be recognized as a safe-ish high cruise with limited sides and visible benefits over some months. 6-8 seems to be a complimentary dose for bodybuilding gear cycles, not enough to make your heart double in size over some weeks of give you an ogre face, but probably not sustainable for months or years without seeing at least some undesirable acromegaly in your heart, feet, hands, face.

So for me my plan is 4iu during a slight trt+ cutting phase with interest in recomp if possible, I’d consider doing 6-8 for a month or three if I pushed a lean bulk as hard as possible (which for me is still way way under a gram total aas a week) and coming completely off or maybe 2-3iu cruise during health/true trt phases.

To better answer your question you’d have to try it- bloods before & during, and tape measure & dexa scans before and after along with total lb scale results, and have periods of identical diet and exercise to compare with results on the GH. That would be the only way to know what it does for you. I know the tesamorelin increased my igf-1 about 50 points to 306 and my visceral fat moved a little faster on it than off it. My results on GH are not really in yet.

Good luck, and hopefully others chime in with more experience or to correct any wrong ideas I might be putting out here- again, I’m new to GH but always do my best to learn before jamming shit in my body

You gained 20 lbs of muscle in your late 40s, on TRT, while being in a deficit going from 46% bf down to around 20%?

You must be huge. Are you pro?

 

[Ghoul]

isn’t this the same as for example people said sema or crash dieting then coming off an binging the weight back!m? it’s got nothing to do with the discontinuation of GH right?

No, it’s across the board.

Kids, adults, sick, healthy, when rHGH is stoped, fat mass goes up, lean mass goes down, even when weight stays the same.

I was going to post some studies but it’s enough to say they all, dozens. show the same impact of stopping rHGH on body composition.

Ironically weight often drops despite fat mass increasing. Probobly from water loss and some muscle mass loss.

 

[RoxasShadow]

No, it’s across the board.

Kids, adults, sick, healthy, when rHGH is stoped, fat mass goes up, lean mass goes down, even when weight stays the same.

I was going to post some studies but it’s enough to say they all, dozens. show the same impact of stopping rHGH on body composition.

Ironically weight often drops despite fat mass increasing. Probobly from water loss and some muscle mass loss.

Thanks for dropping all of this knowledge.

I was wondering, would it be worth during a cut to test my IGF-1 if I haven't done it already to check if my current dose is appropriate based on the above? If so, would 2-3 days of stop suffice?

 

[Mfras]

You gained 20 lbs of muscle in your late 40s, on TRT, while being in a deficit going from 46% bf down to around 20%?

You must be huge. Are you pro?

Not even shooting range of close. Just a large framed 6’ 3” with huge legs from being an active fat guy my whole life and bicycle commuting 10mi/day in a hilly city thru my 20s. Lifted in high school but nothing special.

Working thru fucked up bike wreck injuries and busting my ass off to get lean and strong before I’m too old. Not leaning too hard on PEDs but TRT sure helped a lot.

Recently got on a stack I’m keeping in for a while- 300t, 5iu GH, 4mg reta are the pillars. Hoping to continue recomp as deep as possible into the cut. 215 lean at 235 lbs would be nice.

Pics are recent- about 18-19% body fat at 258lbs. Still feel like a fat fuck but finally feel confident in street clothes.

Goal in this cut is 10% bf which should be low 230s lbs.

 

[deadbeef]

Z score 2 is the physiological limit.

How so? 2.5% of people would naturally have a higher number than that.

 

[deadbeef]

What is the ideal IGF-1 range?

Dr. Thierry Hertoghe recommends a level of 350 in men for longevity.

 

[Ghoul]

Dr. Thierry Hertoghe recommends a level of 350 in men for longevity.

Although his work as a pioneer in this area the rest of medicine shamefully blacklists (anti-aging), by the early 2000’s, a series of accidents resulting in giving patients acromegaly with rHGH got endocrinologists to not only dose by IGF-1 instead of weight, they realized it was necessary to keep IGF within 2 standard deviations (later the “Z score”) to prevent acromegaly.

Thanks to a “misunderstanding”, probably by his primary care doctor, he was kept on 4mg (12iu) instead of the 1.5mg (4.5iu) he was supposed to be lowered to in order to stay in range for his age. This is probably why Z scores started appearing on lab tests, so primary care docs could quickly identify a problem. IGF 800 is fine at 13, so that may be why the primary care doctor wasn’t alarmed seeing that number despite the patient being 22.


No action was taken after testing showed IGF-1 was over 800. He was on that 12iu dose for just 1 year longer than he should have been, developing an overbite and fucked up skeleton requiring multiple surgeries. ONE YEAR.

(1mg=3iu)



We had someone here who got an IGF of 70o not long ago, and he was being congratulated.

I don’t know his age, but I assume older than 22, making 700 far worse than 800 at 22 because Z score for a given IGF goes up quickly every year, and therefore changes, occur faster.

So remember, if you’re using long term, keep Z under 3.

I’m certain there are guys out there right now running cheap rHGH year round, who either don’t know their IGF-1, or think their 800+ is great and unwittingly growing a deformed skeleton we’ll hear about in some horror story in a year or so.

https://www.endocrinologydiabetes.org/article/S2376-0605%2820%2930355-2/fulltext

 

[BatmanVAR]

Not even shooting range of close. Just a large framed 6’ 3” with huge legs from being an active fat guy my whole life and bicycle commuting 10mi/day in a hilly city thru my 20s. Lifted in high school but nothing special.

Working thru fucked up bike wreck injuries and busting my ass off to get lean and strong before I’m too old. Not leaning too hard on PEDs but TRT sure helped a lot.

Recently got on a stack I’m keeping in for a while- 300t, 5iu GH, 4mg reta are the pillars. Hoping to continue recomp as deep as possible into the cut. 215 lean at 235 lbs would be nice.

Pics are recent- about 18-19% body fat at 258lbs. Still feel like a fat fuck but finally feel confident in street clothes.

Goal in this cut is 10% bf which should be low 230s lbs.

If that is 18-19% body fat, then I'm leaner than Mr. Olympia.

 

[explodingHeart]

Not even shooting range of close. Just a large framed 6’ 3” with huge legs from being an active fat guy my whole life and bicycle commuting 10mi/day in a hilly city thru my 20s. Lifted in high school but nothing special.

Working thru fucked up bike wreck injuries and busting my ass off to get lean and strong before I’m too old. Not leaning too hard on PEDs but TRT sure helped a lot.

Recently got on a stack I’m keeping in for a while- 300t, 5iu GH, 4mg reta are the pillars. Hoping to continue recomp as deep as possible into the cut. 215 lean at 235 lbs would be nice.

Pics are recent- about 18-19% body fat at 258lbs. Still feel like a fat fuck but finally feel confident in street clothes.

Goal in this cut is 10% bf which should be low 230s lbs.

pro level physique. clearly 20 lbs of lean tissue were gained.

> Goal in this cut is 10% bf which should be low 230s lbs.

No delusion, here. Can't wait to see how freaking huge, dry, and shredded you get.

 

[Mfras]

If that is 18-19% body fat, then I'm leaner than Mr. Olympia.

Well I have some extra skin and while I know dexa is an estimate I think it’s the best tool we have to estimate bodyfat. I’m not trying to be something I’m not or make wild claims, just over here working hard and doing my best. My most recent dexa was Oct 27th at 264 lbs. I’m now 258 and if lean mass is 210 then 259 would be an even 19%.

I’m not a competitive bodybuilder, not trying to look better than anybody else and not trying to argue with trolls on the internet, but I suspect most men who lift and look good and lean at under 200lbs at my height have slim hips and don’t have the legs of an old man that walked around at or above 250 his whole adult life- the secret hack for huge calves.

If you look at my sheet you’ll see lean mass is 91386.2 201lbs and lean mass plus bone mineral content is 94990.2 grams which 209.4 lbs. please excuse my .6lb rounding error but I’m calling it 210 total fat free mass. And that was 5 weeks ago- on my current protocol I’ve been steadily gaining muscle and losing fat.

If my genetics are elite for being at a decently healthy body fat and still looking like shit that’s fine- I’m not done yet and while I’m proud of my achievement I don’t need your approval for the (estimated) numbers to be true.

 

[BatmanVAR]

Well I have some extra skin and while I know dexa is an estimate I think it’s the best tool we have to estimate bodyfat. I’m not trying to be something I’m not or make wild claims, just over here working hard and doing my best. My most recent dexa was Oct 27th at 264 lbs. I’m now 258 and if lean mass is 210 then 259 would be an even 19%.

I’m not a competitive bodybuilder, not trying to look better than anybody else and not trying to argue with trolls on the internet, but I suspect most men who lift and look good and lean at under 200lbs at my height have slim hips and don’t have the legs of an old man that walked around at or above 250 his whole adult life- the secret hack for huge calves.

If you look at my sheet you’ll see lean mass is 91386.2 201lbs and lean mass plus bone mineral content is 94990.2 grams which 209.4 lbs. please excuse my .6lb rounding error but I’m calling it 210 total fat free mass. And that was 5 weeks ago- on my current protocol I’ve been steadily gaining muscle and losing fat.

If my genetics are elite for being at a decently healthy body fat and still looking like shit that’s fine- I’m not done yet and while I’m proud of my achievement I don’t need your approval for the (estimated) numbers to be true.

I'm not a troll, I'm just explain why you're wrong. You're well over 25% body fat. But if you want to delude yourself, you do do.