If you only lose as much as you are in a deficit, what’s the point of GH for fat loss?

[explodingHeart]

Well I have some extra skin and while I know dexa is an estimate I think it’s the best tool we have to estimate bodyfat. I’m not trying to be something I’m not or make wild claims, just over here working hard and doing my best. My most recent dexa was Oct 27th at 264 lbs. I’m now 258 and if lean mass is 210 then 259 would be an even 19%.

I’m not a competitive bodybuilder, not trying to look better than anybody else and not trying to argue with trolls on the internet, but I suspect most men who lift and look good and lean at under 200lbs at my height have slim hips and don’t have the legs of an old man that walked around at or above 250 his whole adult life- the secret hack for huge calves.

If you look at my sheet you’ll see lean mass is 91386.2 201lbs and lean mass plus bone mineral content is 94990.2 grams which 209.4 lbs. please excuse my .6lb rounding error but I’m calling it 210 total fat free mass. And that was 5 weeks ago- on my current protocol I’ve been steadily gaining muscle and losing fat.

If my genetics are elite for being at a decently healthy body fat and still looking like shit that’s fine- I’m not done yet and while I’m proud of my achievement I don’t need your approval for the (estimated) numbers to be true.

Subtract 50 lbs from where you think you be lean at and we have a good start.

 

[BatmanVAR]

Subtract 50 lbs from where you think you be lean at and we have a good start.

Exactly. I started at 230 and "knew" I'd be ripped when I got under 200. Hit 199 and I wasn't mean, but then I "knew" I just needed to get under 190. Hit 189 and thought, ok, for real this time - 10 more pounds. Hit 179 and still wasn't ripped.

 

[Mfras]

Well I’ll admit that dexa can potentially be off by as much as 5% but it doesn’t really matter does it? Multiple scans on the same machine show positive progress and help keep me motivated to finish my cut. My bloodwork keeps improving, I’m not on here talking about blasting tren to lose weight, not on here talking about how awesome I look. I’m gonna keep cutting till I’m happy, and keep lifting till I’m dead. The rest is just noise.

I do however choose to believe that all signs seem to indicate that my lean mass is over 200lbs.

 

[BlackVeil]

Well I have some extra skin and while I know dexa is an estimate I think it’s the best tool we have to estimate bodyfat. I’m not trying to be something I’m not or make wild claims, just over here working hard and doing my best. My most recent dexa was Oct 27th at 264 lbs. I’m now 258 and if lean mass is 210 then 259 would be an even 19%.

I’m not a competitive bodybuilder, not trying to look better than anybody else and not trying to argue with trolls on the internet, but I suspect most men who lift and look good and lean at under 200lbs at my height have slim hips and don’t have the legs of an old man that walked around at or above 250 his whole adult life- the secret hack for huge calves.

If you look at my sheet you’ll see lean mass is 91386.2 201lbs and lean mass plus bone mineral content is 94990.2 grams which 209.4 lbs. please excuse my .6lb rounding error but I’m calling it 210 total fat free mass. And that was 5 weeks ago- on my current protocol I’ve been steadily gaining muscle and losing fat.

If my genetics are elite for being at a decently healthy body fat and still looking like shit that’s fine- I’m not done yet and while I’m proud of my achievement I don’t need your approval for the (estimated) numbers to be true.

You are delusional…

Throw that dexa scan shit out the window and look in the mirror.

 

[Mfras]

I was 355 a few years ago- this probably means I can never look as good as someone who was never fat. I am also deficient in upper body strength because of inactivity following a small accident. You can see my left leg scars in that photo- that’s my good leg now. While I’ve worked my ass off to bring the right leg back close to the left I’ve only been in the gym lifting a few years now and only just hit 225 bench again. I have a long way to go and have overcome great obstacles and pain. I’ll post more underwhelming physique pics this summer when I hit the 230s and then we’ll see. Until then I’m just a delusional fatass and you two are birdlegged trolls. Apologies to OP for the hijack

 

[hellerhiwater]

I was 355 a few years ago- this probably means I can never look as good as someone who was never fat. I am also deficient in upper body strength because of inactivity following a small accident. You can see my left leg scars in that photo- that’s my good leg now. While I’ve worked my ass off to bring the right leg back close to the left I’ve only been in the gym lifting a few years now and only just hit 225 bench again. I have a long way to go and have overcome great obstacles and pain. I’ll post more underwhelming physique pics this summer when I hit the 230s and then we’ll see. Until then I’m just a delusional fatass and you two are birdlegged trolls. Apologies to OP for the hijack

really awesome, sir. there's a TON of low self esteem and body image issues in the "community" at large, and when someone isn't as miserable or hard on themselves as a tren-addled 20something thinks they should be--it can get nasty.

if you asked for a way to get a solid estimation of lean mass, half the people here would point you toward a dexa. obviously they're not perfect, and i don't buy the inaccuracy being limited to 5%, but that is neither here nor there. if you're making progress and feeling good, and doing things as healthily as you can while pursing the meso way of HARM REDUCTION TM, then i hope you keep pushing.

try not to forget that a LOT of people came to forums like these to address personality issues they have with themselves and not to optimize hormones as they age, chase a professional career, or hop on after 3+ years of solid consistent training...and those are the ones that can get weird.

 

[explodingHeart]

I was 355 a few years ago- this probably means I can never look as good as someone who was never fat. I am also deficient in upper body strength because of inactivity following a small accident. You can see my left leg scars in that photo- that’s my good leg now. While I’ve worked my ass off to bring the right leg back close to the left I’ve only been in the gym lifting a few years now and only just hit 225 bench again. I have a long way to go and have overcome great obstacles and pain. I’ll post more underwhelming physique pics this summer when I hit the 230s and then we’ll see. Until then I’m just a delusional fatass and you two are birdlegged trolls. Apologies to OP for the hijack

You'd be benching 400+ to hold 230 lbs lean at 6'3... in your late 40s (wtf)

I do however choose to believe that all signs seem to indicate that my lean mass is over 200lbs.

You're off by on everything by orders of magnitude.

. Until then I’m just a delusional fatass and you two are birdlegged trolls.

Sure man. Keep posting those amazing huge and shredded pics.

 

[Mfras]

really awesome, sir. there's a TON of low self esteem and body image issues in the "community" at large, and when someone isn't as miserable or hard on themselves as a tren-addled 20something thinks they should be--it can get nasty.

if you asked for a way to get a solid estimation of lean mass, half the people here would point you toward a dexa. obviously they're not perfect, and i don't buy the inaccuracy being limited to 5%, but that is neither here nor there. if you're making progress and feeling good, and doing things as healthily as you can while pursing the meso way of HARM REDUCTION TM, then i hope you keep pushing.

try not to forget that a LOT of people came to forums like these to address personality issues they have with themselves and not to optimize hormones as they age, chase a professional career, or hop on after 3+ years of solid consistent training...and those are the ones that can get weird.

Thanks. I am not an average size I can’t shop at normal stores because my arms are too long, my feet are too big. When looking for bodybuilders with my frame size I come up empty but I’m not so far on the edge of the bellcurve that I’m freakish.

When I first got dexas I was terrified I was a 150 lb man swimming ina fatsuit but now in the high 250s I’m seeing definition in my delts, vascularity coming in my arms & legs, and the spare tire & titties hanging on till the bitter end Who knows maybe I will have to cut much deeper than I thought before I get good abs.

I agree- the only way to know bodyfat is to render and scrape a corpse. My gym has an inbody scale- I jump on it every 6 weeks or so for funsies. It’s guesses are even wilder based on what I see in the mirror, but the trends I see in the data help keep me motivated. Here’s a clip of a recent one for laffs- the weights are at least damn close, the rest is just for fun.

But yeah I’m on a mission and while TRT is a gateway drug I’m too old to get silly and hurt myself. This place has some great folks.

 

[hellerhiwater]

you used an inbody scanner? how very dare you sir. i have misjudged you. you are indeed a delusion butthead who doesn't deserve my interaction!!! (joking btw)

haven't seen trt described as a gateway drug yet, but damn if it isnt accurate lol

hell i wouldnt even be here if my endo wasn't clueless as hell asking me to continue my weightloss with 35 ng/dl testosterone. clomid was making my vision blurry (and it has stayed unfortunately) and i wanted off it, she wanted me to wait NINE MONTHS to start test cream...so i looked elsewhere and boy has it been one hell of a ride lol

nothing crazy yet, but im kinda excited to start it all eventually. test, tadalafil and bpc currently. adex as needed but recently got some aromasin to try instead.

switched endos and the new one played ball, but im too far gone now -_-

225 bench is a good milestone btw. bc we exist in community with other people who lift regularly it has the illusion of commonplace or mundane, but only a very small percentage of the population will ever push 225 pounds off their chest while laying on their back. congrats on that.

 

[Mfras]

You'd be benching 400+ to hold 230 lbs lean at 6'3... in your late 40s (wtf)



You're off by on everything by orders of magnitude.



Sure man. Keep posting those amazing huge and shredded pics.

Why would someone’s pectoral and tricep development determine their overall lean mass? Is this forum only for dorito chip shaped bodybuilders to edge each other out of the spotlight on a stage? Why would you be offended by the feeble efforts of an old man struggling to better himself and why would it be unrealistic that my physique could be heavy and powerful in a way that is not applicable to a body builder’s traditional aesthetic? Your fascination with knocking me from my delusional tower is beginning to say more about you than it does about me.

 

[explodingHeart]

Why would someone’s pectoral and tricep development determine their overall lean mass? Is this forum only for dorito chip shaped bodybuilders to edge each other out of the spotlight on a stage? Why would you be offended by the feeble efforts of an old man struggling to better himself and why would it be unrealistic that my physique could be heavy and powerful in a way that is not applicable to a body builder’s traditional aesthetic? Your fascination with knocking me from my delusional tower is beginning to say more about you than it does about me.

Jesus fuck you are retarded. Christ.

 

[Mfras]

Jesus fuck you are retarded. Christ.

Cheers man now I’m understanding where you’re coming from! See ya this summer with pics of a leaner still underwhelming physique

 

[explodingHeart]

Cheers man now I’m understanding where you’re coming from! See ya this summer with pics of a leaner still underwhelming physique

Arnold was 6'2 220lbs at the 1980 Mr O at about 8% bodyfat.

You're essentially claiming you have as much muscle as Arnold, while on TRT, while almost 50, while being new to all of this.

 

[Mfras]

Arnold was 6'2 220lbs at the 1980 Mr O at about 8% bodyfat.

You're essentially claiming you have as much muscle as Arnold, while on TRT, while almost 50, while being new to all Where we do agree is that I am barely an intermediate lifter and in no way a body builder- amateur or otherwise.

Arnold was 6'2 220lbs at the 1980 Mr O at about 8% bodyfat.

You're essentially claiming you have as much muscle as Arnold, while on TRT, while almost 50, while being new to all of this.

Hey man I read some of your old posts- you do appear to be ‘not a troll’ and I’m taking this latest one here as an act of good faith on your part to show me why you feel the way you do.

I’m gonna say first off I’m not a body builder, and this might be the first and last time I’m mentioned in the same sentence as Arnold. Which is correct and right.

I do have the same calf measurement as him though, with not tons of fat to lose there. And a lot of thigh meat that can move 8 plates a side on a leg press sled a whole bunch of times before my bum knee gets angry, and I’m just a little taller with a much more heavily built skeleton than him- (think missing link not beautiful perfect man). These things tell me I can’t cut to 170 like an average frame dude benching 225.

Since in truth this dexa lean mass number means less than nothing and is just an abstract idea that hurts no one, I’m just gonna keep cutting and lifting until I have no chubb left, then keep lifting some more, to fill out the loose skin, and because I enjoy it.

And I’m gonna do it because I’m on a mission- not to prove you or anybody else wrong but for my own health and gratification. And then, some months from now whether it’s spring like I hope or late summer or next year like you’re sure, I’ll post some pics and we’ll see- in fact I’ll post some pics in 25lbs and tag you just for laffs- I’ll be totally fine with it if you’re right. I’m sure I’ll look like shit as a bodybuilder still, and no one wants to hire underwear models with loose skin, but it is what it is and I’m obviously excited to see it or I wouldn’t ne trying so damn hard every day.

Be well and talk to you then sir.

 

[Ferhev]

One of the big pharma companies did a series of studies decades ago see if they could market rHGH for fat loss.

When it was stopped, fat mostly returned.

But for people into fitness, fat’s not returning until you’re in a surplus, something you decide.

The difference between being on or off GH when that happens is largely where it goes back to. Low GH it’s going into “central adiposity”. Surplus while on GH tends to cause a much more even and aesthetic subcutaneous depositing. Also, the window to burn off excess calories before being stored as fat is longer, and of course with resistance, the GH induced pro anabolic environment makes more lean mass gain occur, leaving less excess for fat deposits.

Staying on forever, or the longest time per year possible is why “as much as you can afford” was the mantra for GH.

At this point though, a 4iu year round supply is under $500, so you no longer have to be a millionaire to afford that. Not long ago that wasn’t enough for a month.

Man I’m impressed with everything you post on different threads. I just want to let you know that I appreciate the effort. Thanks

 

[RoxasShadow]

Although his work as a pioneer in this area the rest of medicine shamefully blacklists (anti-aging), by the early 2000’s, a series of accidents resulting in giving patients acromegaly with rHGH got endocrinologists to not only dose by IGF-1 instead of weight, they realized it was necessary to keep IGF within 2 standard deviations (later the “Z score”) to prevent acromegaly.

Thanks to a “misunderstanding”, probably by his primary care doctor, he was kept on 4mg (12iu) instead of the 1.5mg (4.5iu) he was supposed to be lowered to in order to stay in range for his age. This is probably why Z scores started appearing on lab tests, so primary care docs could quickly identify a problem. IGF 800 is fine at 13, so that may be why the primary care doctor wasn’t alarmed seeing that number despite the patient being 22.


No action was taken after testing showed IGF-1 was over 800. He was on that 12iu dose for just 1 year longer than he should have been, developing an overbite and fucked up skeleton requiring multiple surgeries. ONE YEAR.

(1mg=3iu)

View attachment 363446

We had someone here who got an IGF of 70o not long ago, and he was being congratulated.

I don’t know his age, but I assume older than 22, making 700 far worse than 800 at 22 because Z score for a given IGF goes up quickly every year, and therefore changes, occur faster.

So remember, if you’re using long term, keep Z under 3.

I’m certain there are guys out there right now running cheap rHGH year round, who either don’t know their IGF-1, or think their 800+ is great and unwittingly growing a deformed skeleton we’ll hear about in some horror story in a year or so.

https://www.endocrinologydiabetes.org/article/S2376-0605%2820%2930355-2/fulltext

@Ghoul would you recommend (even though I am into a cutting phase and around 4-5iu rhGH) to test my IGF-1? Next week I have bloods analysis, so might ask to add it for 75£. Would a couple of days of stop from the peptide administration suffice for a value that is useful enough to validate if my current dose is appropriate based on what you presented above in this thread? Thank you.

 

[deadbeef]

Although his work as a pioneer in this area the rest of medicine shamefully blacklists (anti-aging), by the early 2000’s,

If you don't have his book, I highly recommend it. He backs up all of his recommendations with studies and data. The book is actually for physicians, but it's so well written it is easily digestible for laypeople. It is geared for longevity, though, rather than bodybuilding. He is very thorough on making sure not to dose too high and when you should decrease dose.

 

[white-boyka]

One of the big pharma companies did a series of studies decades ago see if they could market rHGH for fat loss.

When it was stopped, fat mostly returned.

But for people into fitness, fat’s not returning until you’re in a surplus, something you decide.

The difference between being on or off GH when that happens is largely where it goes back to. Low GH it’s going into “central adiposity”. Surplus while on GH tends to cause a much more even and aesthetic subcutaneous depositing. Also, the window to burn off excess calories before being stored as fat is longer, and of course with resistance, the GH induced pro anabolic environment makes more lean mass gain occur, leaving less excess for fat deposits.

Staying on forever, or the longest time per year possible is why “as much as you can afford” was the mantra for GH.

At this point though, a 4iu year round supply is under $500, so you no longer have to be a millionaire to afford that. Not long ago that wasn’t enough for a month.

so is there no point using gh for the acute benefit of fat loss if you don’t intend on using it long term then?

 

[Mfras]

so is there no point using gh for the acute benefit of fat loss if you don’t intend on using it long term then?

I think the point is to lose the fat then not gain it back whether you’re still on GH or not. If you use GH during a bulk later the point would be to gain a little everywhere and not just get a spare tire. Hopefully.

 

[RoxasShadow]

What you are missing is that higher levels of GH liberates free fatty acids more than lower levels would, especially from fat deposits that have gone “deaf” and don’t respond easily to lipolysis signaling, especially visceral fat in men. The older you are (with declining GH) the more pronounced this effect is.

But if you don’t dispose of these FFAs by being in a net deficit the excess not burned off via exercise will redeposit as the GH wears off over time or insulin rises post meal ending the enhanced lipolysis.

So no free ride but it tips the balance strongly in favor of fat loss, which the body resists.

The IGF-1 effect from GH creates a “pro-anabolic” environment in muscle protecting lean mass and making it somewhat easier to build muscle. Encourages protein synthesis and increases amount and sensitivity of androgen receptors.

@Ghoul yesterday done bloods; 2IU 2ktropin until Nov then 4IU, then Lobster 5IU from Nov 24th. Daily bolus before bed (including the night before the fasted AM test), currently cutting, plus reta 3mg/wk bolus. Only test 240mg and adex.

Done Randox Everyman check, which has plenty of data on top of which I asked for IGF-1 to be added.

TSH 2.71, FT4 12.6, FT3 3.97, IGF-1 28.5, insulin 4.7, C-peptide 0.6, glucose 4.61, HbA1c 30.16, HDL 2.06, LDL 1.4, triglycerides 2.2, lipase 55.4, amlyase 39

Surprisingly, ApoB 54, ApoE 7.54.

Believe I could even easily slowly tirtrate up to 8IU considering that my Z-score (calculated with some online tools) is between 1 (Horenz) and 1.25 (Bidlingmaier).