MESO-Rx
Anabolic Steroids
Indoplex-Rash!!!
- Thread starter SPE
- Start date
Stop taking it and see if the rash goes away. How much did you start on. I get rashs from high E2 so it could be that but you never had them before taking the Indolplex/DIM. So for a test stop then if the rash goes away you know it was the DIM. But if you took two pills a day then start back on them but take one half a day and see how it goes.SPE said:
Phil
Started taking one pill Wednesday night. Woke up Thursday with a red face, thought it was a sunburn but it was cloudy and 60 degrees so that's unlikely. Took one pill again last night and woke up this morning with pretty much a rash that covered my entire body, with a very red face. When to the urgent care clinic and was prescribed medrol(corticosteriod). As of now, 12 hours after I woke up, it's pretty much gone. I'm stumped. The timing leads me to believe it's due to the indoplex. What I'm thinking is my E2 is already high and this just made things worse?
I doubt that.SPE said:
Indolplex will increase the benign/healthful estrogens (2-hydroxy's). Generally, these estrogens are beneficial to your health, including being anti-cancer. For whatever reason, your body might have a negative reaction to the 2-hydroxy's.
That, too, is odd.SPE said:
Are you talking acne here?
Indolplex/DIM lowed my DHT.
Here is a cut and paste.
Indole-3-carbinol byproduct acts as antiandrogen to halt prostate cancer cell growth
In a study funded in part by the National Institutes of Health, to be published in the June 6 2003 issue of the Journal of Biological Chemistry, University of California, Berkeley researchers have found that a digestive product of indole-3-carbinol, which occurs naturally in broccoli and other cruciferous vegetables, halts the growth of prostate cancer cells in vitro. The compound, 3,3-diindolymethane (DIM), inhibits androgenic hormones that fuel prostate cancer growth. Although androgen is important for the normal development of the prostate, it is believed to be involved in the early stages of prostate cancer.
The researchers administered DIM to androgen dependent and androgen independent prostate cancer cells and found that androgen-dependent cells experienced a 70 percent reduction in growth compared to those that did not receive the compound. Androgen-independent prostate cancer cells were not affected by DIM. The scientists went on to discover that DIM inhibited dihydrotestosterone, the primary androgenic hormone that is believed to be the culprit in prostate cancer. Dihydrotesterone stimulates prostate specific antigen, or PSA, which is elevated in prostate cancer. When DIM was administered to the androgen-dependent prostate cancer cells, PSA levels dropped.
A study of the molecular structure of DIM showed that it is similar to the androgen-blocking drug Casodex. Lead author Hien Le, PhD, explained, DIM works by binding to the same receptor that DHT uses, so it's essentially blocking the androgen from triggering the growth of the cancer cells."
Principle researcher and professor nutritional sciences and toxicology at UC Berkeley's College of Natural Resources, Leonard Bjeldanes, summarized, "As far as we know, this is the first plant-derived chemical discovered that acts as an antiandrogen. This is of considerable interest in the development of therapeutics and preventive agents for prostate cancer."
Phil
Here is a cut and paste.
Indole-3-carbinol byproduct acts as antiandrogen to halt prostate cancer cell growth
In a study funded in part by the National Institutes of Health, to be published in the June 6 2003 issue of the Journal of Biological Chemistry, University of California, Berkeley researchers have found that a digestive product of indole-3-carbinol, which occurs naturally in broccoli and other cruciferous vegetables, halts the growth of prostate cancer cells in vitro. The compound, 3,3-diindolymethane (DIM), inhibits androgenic hormones that fuel prostate cancer growth. Although androgen is important for the normal development of the prostate, it is believed to be involved in the early stages of prostate cancer.
The researchers administered DIM to androgen dependent and androgen independent prostate cancer cells and found that androgen-dependent cells experienced a 70 percent reduction in growth compared to those that did not receive the compound. Androgen-independent prostate cancer cells were not affected by DIM. The scientists went on to discover that DIM inhibited dihydrotestosterone, the primary androgenic hormone that is believed to be the culprit in prostate cancer. Dihydrotesterone stimulates prostate specific antigen, or PSA, which is elevated in prostate cancer. When DIM was administered to the androgen-dependent prostate cancer cells, PSA levels dropped.
A study of the molecular structure of DIM showed that it is similar to the androgen-blocking drug Casodex. Lead author Hien Le, PhD, explained, DIM works by binding to the same receptor that DHT uses, so it's essentially blocking the androgen from triggering the growth of the cancer cells."
Principle researcher and professor nutritional sciences and toxicology at UC Berkeley's College of Natural Resources, Leonard Bjeldanes, summarized, "As far as we know, this is the first plant-derived chemical discovered that acts as an antiandrogen. This is of considerable interest in the development of therapeutics and preventive agents for prostate cancer."
Phil
ciobl
New Member
pmgamer18 -> excellent post bro, where is it coming from ? ncbi ?
this was the study jboldman found a while ago:
Toxicol Sci. 2001 May;61(1):40-8. Related Articles, Links
2,3,7,8-Tetrachlorodibenzo-p-dioxin and diindolylmethanes differentially induce cytochrome P450 1A1, 1B1, and 19 in H295R human adrenocortical carcinoma cells.
Sanderson JT, Slobbe L, Lansbergen GW, Safe S, van den Berg M.
Research Institute for Toxicology, Utrecht University, P.O. Box 80176, 3508 TD Utrecht, The Netherlands. t.sanderson@ritox.vet.uu.nl
Diindolylmethane (DIM) is an acid-catalyzed condensation product of indole-3-carbinol, a constituent of cruciferous vegetables, and is formed in the stomach. DIM alters estrogen metabolism and inhibits carcinogen-induced mammary tumor growth in rodents. DIM is a weak agonist for the aryl hydrocarbon (Ah) receptor and blocks the effects of estrogens via inhibitory Ah receptor-estrogen receptor cross-talk. DIM and various structural analogs were examined in H295R cells for effects on 3 cytochrome P450 (CYP) enzymes involved in estrogen synthesis and/or metabolism: CYP1A1, CYP1B1, and CYP19 (aromatase). Aromatase activity was measured by conversion of 1 beta-(3)H-androstenedione to estrone and (3)H(2)O. H295R cells were exposed to the test chemicals dissolved in dimethyl sulfoxide for 24 h prior to analyses. 2,3,7,8-Tetrachlorodibenzo-p-dioxin (TCDD) (0--30 nM) and DIM (0--10 microM) induced ethoxyresorufin-O-deethylase (EROD) activity, as a measure of CYP1A1 and possibly 1B1 activity, with EC(50) values of about 0.3 nM and 3 microM, respectively. DIM, but not TCDD, induced aromatase activity with an apparently maximal 2-fold increase at 10 microM; higher concentrations of DIM and many of its analogs were cytotoxic. TCDD (30 nM) significantly increased CYP1A1 and 1B1 mRNA levels, but had no effect on mRNA for CYP19. DIM (3 microM) significantly increased mRNA levels for all three CYPS: DIM analogs with substitutions on the 5 and 5' position (3 microM) induced aromatase and EROD activity, together with mRNA levels of CYP1A1, 1B1, and 19; analogs that were substituted on the central carbon of the methane group showed little or no inductive activity toward the CYPS: In conclusion, DIM and several of its analogs appear to induce CYPs via multiple yet distinct pathways in H295R human adrenocortical carcinoma cells.
this was the study jboldman found a while ago:
Toxicol Sci. 2001 May;61(1):40-8. Related Articles, Links
2,3,7,8-Tetrachlorodibenzo-p-dioxin and diindolylmethanes differentially induce cytochrome P450 1A1, 1B1, and 19 in H295R human adrenocortical carcinoma cells.
Sanderson JT, Slobbe L, Lansbergen GW, Safe S, van den Berg M.
Research Institute for Toxicology, Utrecht University, P.O. Box 80176, 3508 TD Utrecht, The Netherlands. t.sanderson@ritox.vet.uu.nl
Diindolylmethane (DIM) is an acid-catalyzed condensation product of indole-3-carbinol, a constituent of cruciferous vegetables, and is formed in the stomach. DIM alters estrogen metabolism and inhibits carcinogen-induced mammary tumor growth in rodents. DIM is a weak agonist for the aryl hydrocarbon (Ah) receptor and blocks the effects of estrogens via inhibitory Ah receptor-estrogen receptor cross-talk. DIM and various structural analogs were examined in H295R cells for effects on 3 cytochrome P450 (CYP) enzymes involved in estrogen synthesis and/or metabolism: CYP1A1, CYP1B1, and CYP19 (aromatase). Aromatase activity was measured by conversion of 1 beta-(3)H-androstenedione to estrone and (3)H(2)O. H295R cells were exposed to the test chemicals dissolved in dimethyl sulfoxide for 24 h prior to analyses. 2,3,7,8-Tetrachlorodibenzo-p-dioxin (TCDD) (0--30 nM) and DIM (0--10 microM) induced ethoxyresorufin-O-deethylase (EROD) activity, as a measure of CYP1A1 and possibly 1B1 activity, with EC(50) values of about 0.3 nM and 3 microM, respectively. DIM, but not TCDD, induced aromatase activity with an apparently maximal 2-fold increase at 10 microM; higher concentrations of DIM and many of its analogs were cytotoxic. TCDD (30 nM) significantly increased CYP1A1 and 1B1 mRNA levels, but had no effect on mRNA for CYP19. DIM (3 microM) significantly increased mRNA levels for all three CYPS: DIM analogs with substitutions on the 5 and 5' position (3 microM) induced aromatase and EROD activity, together with mRNA levels of CYP1A1, 1B1, and 19; analogs that were substituted on the central carbon of the methane group showed little or no inductive activity toward the CYPS: In conclusion, DIM and several of its analogs appear to induce CYPs via multiple yet distinct pathways in H295R human adrenocortical carcinoma cells.
ciobl
New Member
DIM, but not TCDD, induced aromatase activity with an apparently maximal 2-fold increase at 10 microM
Spartan00069
New Member
Maybe I'm missing something, but if DIM
(1) is an anti-androgen and lowers DHT, and
(2) induces estrogen aromatization,
why would anyone on HRT/TRT take it???????
(1) is an anti-androgen and lowers DHT, and
(2) induces estrogen aromatization,
why would anyone on HRT/TRT take it???????
While the above article is quite dense and technical, the primary news that I get from it is that DIM protects men against prostate cancer. That alone is a pretty good reason for men on TRT to take it, IMO.Spartan00069 said:Maybe I'm missing something, but if DIM (1) is an anti-androgen and lowers DHT, and (2) induces estrogen aromatization, why would anyone on HRT/TRT take it???????
Regarding E2, Indolplex/DIM clearly reduces E2. This fact is demonstarted by about 20 of my blood tests taken over the last 3 or 4 years as well as the results of many other posters on this board and in other forums I've participated in over the years. I'm not clear exactly what this article says regarding aromatase activity. Nonetheless, DIM metabolizes E2 sufficiently such that the net effect is a reduction is E2.
Regarding DHT, I suspect that DIM does reduce DHT somewhat. For the last 3 years or so, I've gotten my DHT checked every couple of months or so as part of my standing blood test order. My DHT always runs low normal, however, I don't have a baseline DHT level from before taking DIM. Dr. Shippen gave me a prescription for DHT cream about 2.5 years ago, but I stopped using it after about 2 months because I didn't like the way it made me feel. In retrospect, I suspect that I was applying a bit too much because my DHT results came out at about the top of the range. I recently got a new prescription for DHT cream and have been applying it, at a lower dosage, for about a week.
Given the various E2 management alternatives, Indolplex/DIM is clearly at the top of the list if it works for you. Most men have an excellent response within the first week including rock hard erections and more energy and zest for life. And there are no side effects, AFAIK, unless you take too much and, thereby, drop your E2 too low. (Except for SPE who seems to get a rash from it.)
Last edited:
Here is the link I hope I am not going to be in trouble for posting it.ciobl said:
http://www.lef.org/whatshot/2003_05.html#i3cb
Phil
ciobl
New Member
pmgamer18 said:
phil that's another proof it indeed lowers DHT. the point is this thing we have hanging needs it so bad that article confirms what i suspected since day one. It maybe does not lower dht to drastic levels but if these people start comparing dim with casodex it would not surprise me the would put a ban sooner or later on the supplement.
good article, it was right there on my nose and i missed it.
thanks bro.
Another? Where's the first one?ciobl said:
I wouldn't trust ANYTHING the LEF guy says regarding DIM. He's been on a big time propoganda crusade against DIM ever since Dr. Zeligs refused to let him sell Indolplex through the LEF website.
I don't follow what you're saying here.ciobl said:
I wouldn't bet on it.ciobl said:
Last edited:
ciobl
New Member
DavidZ said:
DavidZ the penis itself.
correct me here but i thought dim has pretty much similarities with the effect on the enzyme 5-alpha.
you already said it has been proven to work on the prostate, right ?
it wouldn't surprise me dim would lead to the same consequences like finasteride has done in the past.
i wouldn't reliably count on the site about dim, why ? because like any product, the endorsements of the products are evident from the authors.
with all respect, DavidZ, I know you personally have used this product, but sometimes you give the impression as if you are receiving some retribution on the side. with all respect 'cause i appreciate your knowledge on the board.
