Indoplex-Rash!!!

[DavidZ]

correct me here but i thought dim has pretty much similarities with the effect on the enzyme 5-alpha.

I wouldn't jump to that conclusion, at this point. Clearly DIM has many positive effects. But like most plant-based supplements, it works in multiple and complex pathways that scientists have a very difficult time analyzing.

you already said it has been proven to work on the prostate, right ?

Yes, I believe that few scientific studies have indicated that.

it wouldn't surprise me dim would lead to the same consequences like finasteride has done in the past.

I strongly doubt that. Look at Saw Palmetto. SP has a stronger and more well-established action against DHT than DIM is suspected to have, yet, SP doesn't have the lingering effects of finasteride. Also, scientists have NOT yet agreed upon how and why SP works!

i wouldn't reliably count on the site about dim, why ? because like any product, the endorsements of the products are evident from the authors.

I share your scepticism about product claims in general. My testimony is solely based on my experience with Indolplex/DIM. Hey, I wish I didn't have to take it, but what other options do we have?

with all respect, DavidZ, I know you personally have used this product, but sometimes you give the impression as if you are receiving some retribution on the side.

LOL! The only benefit I get from Indolplex is my health.

You, OTOH, seem to have something against DIM. What's that about?

with all respect 'cause i appreciate your knowledge on the board.

Thank you for those kind comments. I'm here to learn and share my knowledge. I appreciate others who are here for the same purpose.

 

[ciobl]

You, OTOH, seem to have something against DIM. What's that about?

no, not at all

we for the most part are following your recommendations, not only because you are, along with Shippen, yes, i might say another pioneer on hrt administration, not as a doctor but most important as a patient that has experienced the ups and downs of the usual medications that have been used since the very beginning.

i don't doubt the efficacy of dim on estrogen but at the same time would like to see some medical paper that would back up its beneficial attributions without other nasty side effects that similar drugs supplementation have shown us so far.

thank your for all your help on this board David, appreciate it bro.

 

[earthdog]

Is there an explanation for that reaction (acne from 6-OXO)?

Unlikely, since no real studies were ever done on 6-OXO. Who would fund the studies? Pat Arnold? Your guess is is good as anyone else.

:i don't doubt the efficacy of dim on estrogen but at the same time would like to see some medical paper that would back up its beneficial attributions without other nasty side effects that similar drugs supplementation have shown us so far.

That's exactly the point I'm trying to make about 6-OXO, only ciobl took the words right out of my mouth! Ditto that, only insert 6-OXO in place of DIM above.

 

[DavidZ]

we for the most part are following your recommendations, not only because you are, along with Shippen, yes, i might say another pioneer on hrt administration, not as a doctor but most important as a patient that has experienced the ups and downs of the usual medications that have been used since the very beginning.

I realise how tricky this stuff is. I am continually adjusting my protocol and I still don't think I have it right. In fact, every time I have thought that I had it "right" it seems my body adjusts to it and my needs change, which requires another adjustment. Like I said before, I wish I didn't need any of this stuff, but that's the hand I've been dealt and I'm going to play it the best I can.

i don't doubt the efficacy of dim on estrogen but at the same time would like to see some medical paper that would back up its beneficial attributions without other nasty side effects that similar drugs supplementation have shown us so far.

There are plenty of studies on DIM. Do a Medline search on "diindolylmethane" and 85 articles pop up.

thank your for all your help on this board David, appreciate it bro.

You're very wlecome, bro.

 

[SPE]

I found this study a little puzzling. It says I3C blocks estrogen, but also lowers LH?

Endocrine disruption by indole-3-carbinol and tamoxifen: blockage of ovulation.

Gao X, Petroff BK, Oluola O, Georg G, Terranova PF, Rozman KK.

Department of Pharmacology, Toxicology and Therapeutics, University of Kansas Medical Center, Kansas City 66160, USA.

Immature Sprague-Dawley rats received daily doses of indole-3-carbinol (I3C, 0-1.5 g/kg/day), 3,3'-diindolymethane (DIM, 0-400 mg/kg/day), tamoxifen (TAM, 0-0.5 mg/kg/day), or vehicle to determine if their antiestrogenic effects occur by the same mechanism and whether I3C's action is mediated by DIM. Follicular development was induced on day 24 of age by equine chorionic gonadotropin (eCG, 5 IU) 1 day after the initial dose. In a hormone replacement study, human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG, 10 IU sc, 48 h post-eCG) was used to mimic a normal preovulatoy luteinizing hormone (LH) surge following treatment with either I3C or TAM. Blood and ovaries were collected throughout follicular development and the number of ova shed was measured on the morning following expected ovulation (72 h post-eCG). I3C but not TAM reduced body weight gain at higher doses after 4 days of dosing. Ovarian weight gain and ovulation were inhibited by both I3C and TAM in a dose-dependent fashion. During the preovulatory period, both I3C and TAM blocked normal LH and follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH) surges and suppressed serum progesterone (P(4)) profoundly without changing circulating levels of estrogen (E(2)). At the time of expected ovulation, serum E(2) was increased in rats receiving I3C or tamoxifen, whereas serum P(4) was dose-dependently decreased. DIM exerted no significant effects on any of the endpoints studied, even at the highest dose, indicating that the antiestrogenic effects of I3C are not mediated by this metabolite of I3C. hCG successfully restored ovarian weight gain and ovulation in TAM-treated rats. However, hCG only partially reversed the blockage of ovulation by I3C, although ovarian weight gain was restored to normal. In summary, both I3C and TAM block ovulation by altering preovulatory concentrations of LH and FSH, but I3C appears to exert its effect(s) by (a) different mechanism(s) of action. I3C seems to act at both the ovarian and hypothalamic levels by mechanisms similar to those seen in TCDD-treated rats, whereas TAM appears to act only on the hypothalamic-pituitary axis as an anti-estrogen.

PMID: 12383709 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

 

[Matt Muscle]

Regarding DHT, I suspect that DIM does reduce DHT somewhat. For the last 3 years or so, I've gotten my DHT checked every couple of months or so as part of my standing blood test order. My DHT always runs low normal, however, I don't have a baseline DHT level from before taking DIM. Dr. Shippen gave me a prescription for DHT cream about 2.5 years ago, but I stopped using it after about 2 months because I didn't like the way it made me feel. In retrospect, I suspect that I was applying a bit too much because my DHT results came out at about the top of the range. I recently got a new prescription for DHT cream and have been applying it, at a lower dosage, for about a week.

David, what did the DHT cream do to you when you took it the first time and why didnt you like it?
Why have you decided to take it again... is your libido suffering from low DHT levels?
Has anyone here tried very small amounts of test cream on the testes as per Dr Shippen... to increase DHT levels specifically in this area?

 

[SPE]

Frustrating...

I stopped for a week and then started again Thursday night with 1/2 tab, and again last night. This morning the rash is back under my arms and down my sides. I guess this stuff doesn't like me.

 

[DavidZ]

I stopped for a week and then started again Thursday night with 1/2 tab, and again last night. This morning the rash is back under my arms and down my sides. I guess this stuff doesn't like me.

Or vice versa.

 

[SWALE]

SPE--Have you tried the same product form a differentr manufacturer? Your symptoms could also be caused by some other component of the tab.

Also, the study you found pertains to females, not us, and therefore really isn't of any use to us here. I guess beyond that, it was female RATS.

David--I would suggest you stick with a given regimen longer. Changing what you are doing all the time only throws your system into chaos. It can take months for things to even out and restabilize following ANY dosgae or supplement change. You end up just chasing your tail all the time.

 

[SPE]

Bac

Swale-That was one of my guesses, so I went ahead and bought some DIM from Beyond-a-Century. I just can't see why I would be having that reaction to a product containing good things from vegies.

 

[DavidZ]

David--I would suggest you stick with a given regimen longer. Changing what you are doing all the time only throws your system into chaos. It can take months for things to even out and restabilize following ANY dosgae or supplement change. You end up just chasing your tail all the time.

Thanks for your comments, Swale. I agree. I've been on essentially the same regimen for about 5 years now. For the last 3 years or so, my baseline protocol has been HCG, Indolplex, Zinc and Centrum Silver. I've experimented with some different things (e.g., L-Arginine, etc.) for short periods of time, but I always do one or more 2 or 3 week trial(s) with before and after blood tests while holding all other protocol components constant.

The only other significant change I made in the last 3 years (other than dosage titrations) has been to move from twice weekly to daily HCG shots based on your suggestion. I did this for about 2.5 weeks and then got a blood test. My blood tests were good, which confirmed my clinical response, so I'm continuing on with daily (actually nightly) HCG shots. It's a little more hastle, but I think the constancy element is worth it.

DHT cream is something that I tried 4 years ago for about 2 or 3 months. In looking at my records, I noticed that a dosage of about 6 to 7 mg/day put my DHT a little bit above the normal range. Since my DHT runs low-normal (I've gotten blood tests every 2 months or so for the last 5 years, including DHT for the last 4 years), I decided to add a very small amount of DHT (1.6 mg/day) to try to push it up a bit to get to mid-range. I like the way it feels. In fact, I tried 2.4 mg/day for a day or 2 and didn't like it, so I dropped it back down to 1.6 mg. I expect my next test results to be midrange for DHT with no significant change for T and E2.

So you can see, I agree with your suggestion. I've been doing HCG for 5 years now and have learned to make very small dosage adjustments and always confirm protocol changes with blood tests results.

 

[Stez]

If DIM is an anti-androgen does that mean it will effect strength and muscularity in a negative manner?

 

[SPE]

Update

Ok, this is a bit strange. I started HRT almost three weeks ago. I decided to give Indoplex(Phytopharmacia) one more try as there have been too many threads here reporting it's benefits. I ordered more from ritecare, only this time I ordered 30 instead of 60. First week of HRT I didn't have it. The second week I started it and noticed it releaved some of my bloat. I have now been on it for 2 weeks @ 1/2 pill per day with absolutely no problems. Strange. Maybe I got a bad lot to begin with? Or, maybe it took the HRT for my body to be able to use it effectively? Don't know. I did have labs done again yesterday so we'll see where my E2 is.

 

[JayTheBull]

I ordered some Indolplex from Ritecare as well and am waiting to receive it. Is a half pill about the right dosage to start with? DavidZ - thanks for your posts and comments about DIM.

 

[DavidZ]

I ordered some Indolplex from Ritecare as well and am waiting to receive it. Is a half pill about the right dosage to start with?

A lot of posters say that they tried Indolplex/DIM and it improved their erections, but after a week they were as bad or worse off than before they started. What happened was that they dropped their E2 down to the optimum level and then went beyond it. The window of optimum E2 level is very small. Too little E2 is not a good thing. E2 is needed for libido as well as heart, muscle and bone health. That's why I suggest starting low (e.g., one tablet per day at dinner) and then see how it goes. If your erections get strong for a few days and then go away, that means that the dosage is too high for you. Stop for 2 or 3 days and start up again at half a tablet per day. If the same thing happens again, go to one quarter of a tablet per day. Once youre in the right range and you want to adjust from there, make the adjustment small and keep it at that level for a week, or better yet, 2 weeks. Observe your body's response and adjust accordingly.

Getting the dosage right is extremely tricky and extremely critical. What makes adjusting the DIM dosage so difficult is that the clinical response you get (i.e., how you feel) when you take too much (i.e., drop your E2 too low) feels a lot like the response you get when you take too little (i.e., when your E2 is too high). As a result, when you feel down, you don't know whether to increase or decrease the dosage. That's why I learned to listen very carefully to my body and rely on certain indicators. These indicators include erectile response, nipple sensitivity, the quality and restfulness of my sleep, my tendency to maintain or gain weight, and the presence or absence of a burning sensation in my lips and tongue. Eventually, using these indicators, I developed the ability to regulate my daily Indolplex/DIM intake.

DavidZ - thanks for your posts and comments about DIM.

You're very welcome.