MESO-Rx
Anabolic Steroids
Insulin and Diabetes
- Thread starter JoeMoore
- Start date
I've seen this question asked many times and I'd like the answer myself. I've heard guys are real scared of the stuff but I've never heard of one actual bad experience. I've used Humalog post workout on and off for years with incredible results. I swear once you've used it in a cycle, you'll never go without it again.
Matrix
Matrix
I'm an MD and a former competitive athlete. Endocrinology is almost as bothersome for modern medicine as Nephrology (kidneys). Arguably the most powerful stimulant for food consumption (peptide called ghrelin) wasn't discovered until 1999. We currently use several antipsychotics that produce 1kg/wk of semi-permanent weight gain on sedentary people. Although much like gear, the weight often comes off when we stop the meds.matrix said:
It's conceivable you could run cycles of insulin to boost growth. Insulin is the undisputed king of anabolic agents. But you would need a complete metabolic profile beforehand and an endocrinologist to monitor for maladaptive changes. Unless you are willing to invest that kind of money I would shy away from insulin use. I imagine you could cheat 10-20U on occasion . . . maybe even a short cycle with smaller doses . . . but NOBODY really knows the answer to your question. Mother Nature designed a marvelously complex yet efficient endocrine system. Gear may allow you to cheat the HPG axis but trying to fool the pancreas will rarely work out in your favor.
hailtopitt
New Member
Only a poor student here, so i hate to argue with an MD, but to more directly answer your question since more than likely you're going to use the insulin anyway...NO, insulin use will not lead to diabetes. i asked the very same question in my endocrinology module last semester and the endocrinologist said it would not. apparently the pancreas doesn't work like the testes, so your body won't shut down its own insulin production, unlike it does with testosterone injections. your pancreas supplies a basal amount of insulin to your body throughout the day so production never really stops and using a short acting insuling like Humalog or Novolog will only increase exogenous levels for a short time, not really long enough to trigger any kind of negative feedback.
this is just what i've learned, take it with a grain of salt. like the doc said, the endocrine system is delicate and different people respond differently to drugs.
Here's another question along the same lines that maybe the doc or someone else can answer...a drug called Precose is used to treat type 2 diabetes...simply put, it delays glucose absorption and decreases the insulin spike after a meal, therefore lowering the glycemic index of the food you're eating...in my mind this means the potential for weight loss, increased energy, increased insulin sensitivity etc...has anyone ever heard of it used non-therapeutically as such? - might make this questions its own thread if there is interest.
this is just what i've learned, take it with a grain of salt. like the doc said, the endocrine system is delicate and different people respond differently to drugs.
Here's another question along the same lines that maybe the doc or someone else can answer...a drug called Precose is used to treat type 2 diabetes...simply put, it delays glucose absorption and decreases the insulin spike after a meal, therefore lowering the glycemic index of the food you're eating...in my mind this means the potential for weight loss, increased energy, increased insulin sensitivity etc...has anyone ever heard of it used non-therapeutically as such? - might make this questions its own thread if there is interest.
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The actual induction of diabetes from exogenous insulin is unlikely but not impossible. The mechanisms that underlie Type II diabetes has some wiggle room for people that develop insulin-insensitivity without being fat. And if there's DM2 in the family don't even dream about using it.
The short-term issue with supplemental insulin is giving too much. There's at least one published case report of a bodybuilder
developing emergent hypoglycemia after misusing insulin. The problem is that insulin is just like gear in that a little is good, a little more is better, but you might not know you've gone too far until it's too late. Mild hypoglycemia can be treated with an amp of D50 (50% glucose) or even an oral sugar load (fruit juice). But if you miss by a lot you will earn yourself an ER visit, possibly an overnight stay, and an ugly bill.
It is conceivable a highly motivated person could dance with the devil but getting baseline labs would be a definite as well as informing your personal physician that you are planning something really dumb (but make sure he doesn't write it in your record!!) Granted having it in the medical record may save your life but will end affordable insurance.
The future PharmD is right about short-acting insulins but there's a flipside to the anabolic coin. Insulin doesn't care what kind of substrate is available. It will pack on 10lbs of fat just as easily as it will a couple of pounds of muscle. Insulin shuts down lipolysis (fat breakdown) so a dirty diet (McDs . . . even without the bun) will leave a lasting adipose impression.
We are actually starting a couple of clinical trials for wt loss agents. Precose is not one of them even though it works. The problem is slowed carb digestion from the gut invariably produces gas . . . a lot of gas. There's a "natural" alternative made from the great Northern white kidney bean (phaseolus vulgaris) that goes by the name Phase2. It works by the same mechanism but allegedly produces less gas. I bought two bottles for the wife and a colleague but having gotten around to dosing them yet. Metformin works well for increasing insulin sensitivity and weight loss. There's evidence that many of the 'glitazones work but they bump liver enzymes (granted I doubt that bothers you guys). High dose H2 blockers (Axid, Zantac) produce weight loss in our patients on antipsychotics.
The short-term issue with supplemental insulin is giving too much. There's at least one published case report of a bodybuilder
developing emergent hypoglycemia after misusing insulin. The problem is that insulin is just like gear in that a little is good, a little more is better, but you might not know you've gone too far until it's too late. Mild hypoglycemia can be treated with an amp of D50 (50% glucose) or even an oral sugar load (fruit juice). But if you miss by a lot you will earn yourself an ER visit, possibly an overnight stay, and an ugly bill.It is conceivable a highly motivated person could dance with the devil but getting baseline labs would be a definite as well as informing your personal physician that you are planning something really dumb (but make sure he doesn't write it in your record!!) Granted having it in the medical record may save your life but will end affordable insurance.
The future PharmD is right about short-acting insulins but there's a flipside to the anabolic coin. Insulin doesn't care what kind of substrate is available. It will pack on 10lbs of fat just as easily as it will a couple of pounds of muscle. Insulin shuts down lipolysis (fat breakdown) so a dirty diet (McDs . . . even without the bun) will leave a lasting adipose impression.
We are actually starting a couple of clinical trials for wt loss agents. Precose is not one of them even though it works. The problem is slowed carb digestion from the gut invariably produces gas . . . a lot of gas. There's a "natural" alternative made from the great Northern white kidney bean (phaseolus vulgaris) that goes by the name Phase2. It works by the same mechanism but allegedly produces less gas. I bought two bottles for the wife and a colleague but having gotten around to dosing them yet. Metformin works well for increasing insulin sensitivity and weight loss. There's evidence that many of the 'glitazones work but they bump liver enzymes (granted I doubt that bothers you guys). High dose H2 blockers (Axid, Zantac) produce weight loss in our patients on antipsychotics.
hailtopitt
New Member
agreed on all points...about the metformin, in a discussion with the same endocrinologist, he used it himself for weight loss (he's not diabetic) and continues to use it for weight maintenance. personally, i'd rather stick to the treadmill than deal with the sides from any of these drugs....gas, diarrhea, etc...although i would like to see some info on the precose, just based on literature it sounds like it could work pretty well when those carb cravings hit. i don't like the glitazones just for the fact that they can shuffle the glucose to adipose tissue just as easily as skeletal muscle and actually result in weight gain in some people, not to mention the increased liver values...the FDA has already yanked one of the drugs in this class for that reason, and the other 2 are under watch now as well.
i'm glad you mentioned the kidney bean fact, i've never heard about it before, but i know that almost all of the carb blockers sold OTC contain kidney bean extract, but until now i never knew why...Thanks doc, i owe ya.
i'm glad you mentioned the kidney bean fact, i've never heard about it before, but i know that almost all of the carb blockers sold OTC contain kidney bean extract, but until now i never knew why...Thanks doc, i owe ya.
einstein1905
New Member
The doc is going to want to kick me in the shin for even suggesting this. However, Using moderate doses of a short-acting slin like humalog at 10IU or less post workout with adequate simple sugar intake (adequate can be debated) in conjunction with mild doses od DNP can be an amazing combo. The short acting slin PROBABLY will not cause an increased slin dependence, especially if cycled. DNP expends calories primarily using adipose as its substrate. Some will say do not use "cutters" while bulking. Nothing is a bulker or a cutter. Your diet dictates all. If you consume enough maintenance calories after the slin is past activity, you'll be fine. Add in GH or IGF-1 to upregulate slin receptors while slin upregulates IGF-1 receptors, and you have beautiful synergy.
Glad to see a doc on here though. I'm an MD/PhD student, but I'm a long way from being done.
Glad to see a doc on here though. I'm an MD/PhD student, but I'm a long way from being done.
