Insulin instead of more anabolics

[Iron_Yuppie]

I’m posing this hypothetical question as a way to find a flaw or two in my thinking, so criticisms are not only welcome but appreciated.

Let’s say you have an intermediate lifter who has dabbled with various steroids, but has not been comfortable with various side effects. (What side effects are not relevant for this discussion) He’s on trt, is in good health, and wants to blast maybe once every 12-18 months, just to add a little bit of size, but really nothing ambitious.

What reason would he have for using larger doses of AAS when he could simply add a relatively small amount of insulin daily for let’s say no longer than 12 weeks?

The doses we’re talking about here are not anywhere in the vicinity of dangerous, call it 5-10iu maximum. This mostly eliminates the risk of going hypo if our subject has even the slightest ability to plan ahead.

By eschewing more steroids he’s avoiding known side effects, likely is lessening the impact on his cardiovascular system, and is reducing his overall risk from steroid-induced health problems generally.

What’s the flaw in this approach? And for the purposes of this conversation assume the guy in question is doing everything else mostly right.

 

[Mac11wildcat]

I don't think it is necessarily flawed. It's just added complexity. I think most experienced users here would agree lower, manageable doses of more drugs is a generally safer approach. I would add that unless GH is included I think insulin is a poor choice.

However I have yet to meet somebody as you suggest; an average person looking for more from drug usage that doesn't have room to drastically enhance the effects of what they're already doing with better diet, training, recovery, etc.

 

[Iron_Yuppie]

I don't think it is necessarily flawed. It's just added complexity. I think most experienced users here would agree lower, manageable doses of more drugs is a generally safer approach. I would add that unless GH is included I think insulin is a poor choice.

However I have yet to meet somebody as you suggest; an average person looking for more from drug usage that doesn't have room to drastically enhance the effects of what they're already doing with better diet, training, recovery, etc.

You were just the person I would hope chimed in, so I appreciate the time you gave me.

I assumed GH needed to be part of the plan, but I left it out and assumed that if it needed to be added in someone would point that out. It was a good way to validate my thought without putting it into the equation and potentially skewing the direction people went.

And of course your last sentence is the real world answer. This hypothetical guy doesn’t really exist, because if he did he would have already made the progress he wanted to by applying better training and diet. But in the world of imagination he can be anything we want him to be.

 

[Rido]

This is just my speculation below. I haven't reached that point yet. I doubt I will need to utilize insulin anytime soon.


I would probably model after what they do for some female to maximize anabolism and minimize virilization(in our case limit toxicity from anabolics.

I just mentioned this yesterday but I need to do more reading. Millard was kind enough to show some stuff.

If I reached a plateau at 1.5 grams of AAS a week.

I would probably re evaluate my diet, make it more strict, increase GH, and incorporate insulin.

I feel like I'm reaching my goal muscle size sooner than later. And I will need to focus on some conditioning.

 

[bornSkinny]

Why would you assume just adding slin into the mix with lower doses would equal the results of higher dosages?

I’m very interested to hear people’s thoughts.

I’ve been using some insulin myself very recently for the first time but only because I finally started on some Gh. Otherwise I never would have bothered, and the only reason I wanted to run Gh is because I’m getting old.

 

[Iron_Yuppie]

I haven't reached that point yet. I doubt I will need to utilize insulin anytime soon.

This is precisely what I’m trying to understand. There is some sort of shroud around insulin where people feel the need to, for lack of a better word, earn their way into using. But we see lots of people using a gram of gear a week and think nothing of it. I’m wondering where that whole aura of mystery came from and how it persists. This is more philosophical than anything else, which is maybe weird but it interests me nonetheless.

 

[Iron_Yuppie]

Why would you assume just adding slin into the mix with lower doses would equal the results of higher dosages?

I don’t assume that at all. I am in fact endeavoring to assume as little as possible and instead approach the question with as much of a blank slate as I can.

I’ll use myself as the example here, though I don’t fit the hypothetical profile above. But just follow me anyway.

Adding say 300mg of test to my baseline trt will give me some reasonable results, but will blow out my HCT. I can barely maintain trt without that particular thing being an issue every ~18 months. So that very basic type of blast is out of the question for me.

But what if adding a modest dose of insulin gave me similar results but didn’t cause any problems with regard to HCT? Well then I would say that’s a better option for me, at least within a vacuum. Of course what I don’t know is how the results would compare to something else. Or what the unanticipated side effects could be. (Hence the reason I don’t use insulin, or a ton of other drugs)

 

[bornSkinny]

I don’t assume that at all. I am in fact endeavoring to assume as little as possible and instead approach the question with as much of a blank slate as I can.

I’ll use myself as the example here, though I don’t fit the hypothetical profile above. But just follow me anyway.

Adding say 300mg of test to my baseline trt will give me some reasonable results, but will blow out my HCT. I can barely maintain trt without that particular thing being an issue every ~18 months. So that very basic type of blast is out of the question for me.

But what if adding a modest dose of insulin gave me similar results but didn’t cause any problems with regard to HCT? Well then I would say that’s a better option for me, at least within a vacuum. Of course what I don’t know is how the results would compare to something else. Or what the unanticipated side effects could be. (Hence the reason I don’t use insulin, or a ton of other drugs)

It’s an interesting question for sure. I’m definitely working towards learning how to use lower dosages of what I know, and becoming familiar bio-identical compounds like slin and Gh. That’s definitely the future of use for me.

I only started with those in January. I’m currently taking 4iu a day Gh and a fast acting slin pre workout, as well as a basal for BG control.
Results wise I can only say beware of the slin pumps in the gym. It’s almost too much sometimes and you can’t unsee yourself like that. Kind of makes the regular you look disappointing.

You’ll never be as big as your pump I suppose right?

But if I had to guess which would build more muscle, all other variables being the same in your example. I don’t think the anabolism created by insulin driving nutrients into the muscles can compare to doubling your gear. That’s just me guessing though.

 

[Nicknewguy]

I don’t have a ton of experience, but I am probably one of the only people on this forum who has ran an insulin only cycle and I can tell you from first hand experience that I am a fucking idiot.

It did absolutely nothing for my gains. I don’t think insulin or hgh are superior to anabolics for gains and if it wasn’t for the fat burning and skin composition benefits from hgh I don’t think anybody would use it. I was using 1 unit per 10g of carbs that I was eating before each meal. I think anybody trying to take a “bodybuilding dose” could seriously hurt themselves if they don’t know what they are doing. I almost fainted a couple times because I didn’t get carbs in quick enough after an injection and went hypoglycemic. Honestly, I am just lucky I didn’t do any irreversible harm.

I think a TRT dose of test with hgh and insulin may increase your gains a little bit but it just seems like a bad trade off. You may not have to worry about your hematocrit, but you may increase your insulin resistance and become diabetic eventually.

 

[bornSkinny]

I don’t have a ton of experience, but I am probably one of the only people on this forum who has ran an insulin only cycle and I can tell you from first hand experience that I am a fucking idiot.

It did absolutely nothing for my gains. I don’t think insulin or hgh are superior to anabolics for gains and if it wasn’t for the fat burning and skin composition benefits from hgh I don’t think anybody would use it. I was using 1 unit per 10g of carbs that I was eating before each meal. I think anybody trying to take a “bodybuilding dose” could seriously hurt themselves if they don’t know what they are doing. I almost fainted a couple times because I didn’t get carbs in quick enough after an injection and went hypoglycemic. Honestly, I am just lucky I didn’t do any irreversible harm.

I think a TRT dose of test with hgh and insulin may increase your gains a little bit but it just seems like a bad trade off. You may not have to worry about your hematocrit, but you may increase your insulin resistance and become diabetic eventually.

You ran insulin and nothing else like no Gh or other anabolics? Why?

I don’t think it’s a concern about disrupting insulin sensitivity if it’s just a blast. It’s just temporary.

 

[Nicknewguy]

Yes just insulin only. It was about 10 years ago when I did it and I just thought it would allow my body to absorb more nutrients and possibly increase my glycogen stores or something. I did it just because I knew it was legal to just walk into a pharmacy and just ask for it. It was the first thing non natural thing I had ever tried so it was just one of the dumb decisions I made when I was younger. The next cycle I ran was a Dianabol only cycle which was also a dumb decision.

I do personally think insulin resistance could still develop during a blast. It’s just more a matter of how many times you blast and for how long before it inevitably happens.

 

[Mac11wildcat]

I certainly know I saw it as "earned" and for better or worse for a couple reasons:
1. Despite being fairly hard to do...it can be lethal
2. There are plenty of drugs to play with prior
3. It almost matter of factly requires GH in the mix, so now you've added 2 drugs at once if you didn't start with GH and most don't start GH from the jump

Im just glad people aren't obsessed over rushing to insulin like they are to tren. Who knows how long that will last.

 

[tuffie]

I see the logic, bio-identical hormones/peptides = less sides than the synthetic PEDS. Less sides = marathon run in this lifestyle (when taking out genetics and outliers, just in general). Also reasonable doages. So thats the Theory. Now the practice would be the real test. I have no experience with insulin but combined with hgh (since its bioidentical) appears to be mentioned by many many elite bodybuilders. So, timing it with friendly food and training many gains will be won with hardly any sides when compared to tren, superdrol, [insert oral/synthetic aas here].

The fear mongering posts about insulin has not changed. but the elites who actually talk about there use and dosages say otherwise. What has changed was the fear posts by hgh or igf, cancer cancer dont to it cancer. Now its "bruh, game changer". But just as this is a harm reduction thread, apply the same methodology of researching before using insulin. The risk of mis calculating the dose on the insulin syringe and glucose [same risks applied using to much hgh too, just different dosages]. Again, this is just my opinion with no experience using insulin, just reading and listening about it.

I believe OP just wants to avoid sides. So bio-identical in theory is safest given the approach. more risk in synthetics, yes.

Lets break it down.

What is the mecanism of action to use AAS? To hold onto lean mass.
What is the mecanism of action to use peptides [hgh]? Recovery
What is the mecanism of action to diet correctly? Growth
What is the mecanism of action to use insulin? I would have to give an opinion of 1 word? Growth, thats why its essential to timing the dose and having a friendly diet.

And be that person to break that honor of 500mg test blast it, or bro theres other drugs to try first... yeah right.

Bio-identical is the way to go in harm-reduction terms and theres no drugs to try first before this or after this that.. (taking into account that OP is on test and has used other aas, bio-identical > synthetic)

 

[Rido]

This is precisely what I’m trying to understand. There is some sort of shroud around insulin where people feel the need to, for lack of a better word, earn their way into using. But we see lots of people using a gram of gear a week and think nothing of it. I’m wondering where that whole aura of mystery came from and how it persists. This is more philosophical than anything else, which is maybe weird but it interests me nonetheless.

It's not that I'm scared or think I need to get to another level. It's one more thing to put up with. Timing, food selection, etc.

I enjoy my steaks and salmon post workout for example and I haven't done enough reading if I truly should stick to lean easily digestable meats post workout. Plus I workout in the AM before work and don't have time to get a BG monitor.

It looks more of a pain in the ass to me right now more than anything.

If I reach a point of " dose limiting toxicity" from AAS. I can look into insulin. I might screw around with it for the second half of my cycle post workout.


If I reach 2grams of gear for God knows what reason and I get nasty sides. Labs arrhythmia etc

Could drop done to 1.5g and utilize insulin. But who knows... I said the same shit about tren

 

[tuffie]

From many elite body builders and coaches. The answer is Yes. The coaches explicitly state themselves "'x' was competing, as we approach this timeframe we lower [aas], change the diet and use increase the use of insulin" or better yet "we upped the dose on all the drugs and diet" ... but yes, they say that insulin helps tremendously in a growth phase so in theory, you can lower the use of aas since that is the goal. aas only shines to help hold lean muscle tissue.

I can def agree that adding insulin helps growth while lowering aas use.

 

[tuffie]

This is precisely what I’m trying to understand. There is some sort of shroud around insulin where people feel the need to, for lack of a better word, earn their way into using. But we see lots of people using a gram of gear a week and think nothing of it. I’m wondering where that whole aura of mystery came from and how it persists. This is more philosophical than anything else, which is maybe weird but it interests me nonetheless.

Same thing applies to drug use in general imo. Its called Heroic doses. Its a fad amongst "who can tolerate the most drugs" like "this is when i nod out" , "this is when the visuals kicked in" "this caused ego-death" "this made me grow the most" or "2 beers ur drunk ur a pussy bro" and theres friends say wow you are a legend bro. so its a trendy ego boost 'thing'. But in the aas world, since these HPLC labs are around, these ugl's cant scam anymore.

So i think it has to do with ego and money in the black market world.

Refering back to the 70's early 2000's 80% of end-users can only speculate there real use of anabolics unless it was pharma or they knew exactly what was in it at least with a marquis test. Theres hplc now helping the end-user.

One example in movies, the protagonist deals drugs and gets a batch. sells it, one of his clients tells him [just like on meso] "broo strongest shit i ever had" .. then makes modifications to get more yield by cutting it or selective scamming etcetc

We as a community gotta give props to these hplc labs and invite all competition.

 

[Whopperflopper]

I dont see a flaw. Just match your slin dose to your existing glucose levels. Dont dose your slin under the perception of what you will consume.
If I want to grow, I have to eat more, I simply up my skin dosages. However, I'm insulin resistant. I need it. GH does indeed increase resistance, almost to the point where slin is indeed also necessary.