Let’s take two scenarios with two identical twins that eat and train exactly the same. One twin inject 100mg test suspension every week, while the other twin inject 145mg test enanthate every week. So both twins inject 100mg of pure exogenous testosterone every week. They do this for a year. Which twin will have more gains at the end of the year?
MESO-Rx
Anabolic Steroids
Cereal masturbator
Member
Basic understanding is that long esters aromatise more (depending on compound) and you have more test in 100MG test P than you do in test E
Mishka
Member
But long esters will stack / build up more.
The faster the release from the depot, the more active substance can react with its targets (receptors, enzymes like aromatase or 5-alpha-reductase). It's the same reason why SQ testosterone seems to have less effect on erythropoiesis and to be less aromatized compared to IM injection
readalot
Member
IM versus Sub-q T Injections: Effect on TT, hematocrit, E2, and PSA
Comparison of Outcomes for Hypogonadal Men Treated with Intramuscular Testosterone Cypionate Versus Subcutaneous Testosterone Enanthate (2020) Introduction Intramuscular testosterone cypionate (IM-TC) is the conventional treatment option for hypogonadal men with baseline serum total...
www.excelmale.com
Unfortunately the baseline age for the treatment arms was not matched well.
New Study - SubQ Alledgedly Leads To Lower HCT/E2/PSA Than IM Just Published
This data was first discussed here a year or so ago when it was released as a poster. It was now just published in a major urology journal. Bascially it suggested that 75 or 100mg of "Xyosted" (SubQ enanthate) each week leads to lower HCT/E2/PSA than does 100mg of IM cypionate. This is a poor...
www.excelmale.com
The paper should never have been published with this glaring defect.
readalot
Member
One twin is injecting Test no ester which has same PK profile as test prop. The other is doing TE with longer effective elimination half life. The twin doing TE would need to inject ~139 mg/week to get 100 mg/week of pure test.
Area under the curve the same for both.
Same gainz unless there is some mechanism to explain same AUC but difference in peak/trough fluctuation causing net benefit. One may be sleep. Once weekly hit of 100 mg per week of test no ester will yield a massive peak.
www.excelmale.com
Fun hypothetical.
Area under the curve the same for both.
Area under the Curve – Pharmacokinetics
sepia2.unil.ch
Same gainz unless there is some mechanism to explain same AUC but difference in peak/trough fluctuation causing net benefit. One may be sleep. Once weekly hit of 100 mg per week of test no ester will yield a massive peak.
Trans scrotal testosterone cream application is a game changer
You got a link to those papers? Was just pulling one from 1890s the other day unrelated to this topic. So nice we have so much digitized. Much easier now than the good ole days. Maybe that is why my TT/fT is so low, I am not climbing the stairs at the health science library as much as I used to.
www.excelmale.com
Fun hypothetical.
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effswithtren
Well-known Member
If there’s anything to this, this would be my thought as to why. After a month’s administration, the accumulation of Deca vs NPP is substantial. This wouldn’t matter in a short cycle, or would even come out benefitting the faster ester, but after a few weeks the longer ester comes out further and further ahead depending on ester length.
readalot
Member
AUC invariant to ester length. Pharmacokinetics commonly misunderstood.
Surely, I agree with you, but there are some other studies if I remember well (also cited in that one) that demonstrated the same pharmacokinetics and pharmacodynamics effect, but it's been quite a while that I read themIM versus Sub-q T Injections: Effect on TT, hematocrit, E2, and PSA
Comparison of Outcomes for Hypogonadal Men Treated with Intramuscular Testosterone Cypionate Versus Subcutaneous Testosterone Enanthate (2020) Introduction Intramuscular testosterone cypionate (IM-TC) is the conventional treatment option for hypogonadal men with baseline serum total...
Unfortunately the baseline age for the treatment arms was not matched well.
New Study - SubQ Alledgedly Leads To Lower HCT/E2/PSA Than IM Just Published
This data was first discussed here a year or so ago when it was released as a poster. It was now just published in a major urology journal. Bascially it suggested that 75 or 100mg of "Xyosted" (SubQ enanthate) each week leads to lower HCT/E2/PSA than does 100mg of IM cypionate. This is a poor...
The paper should never have been published with this glaring defect.
I found this article interesting "Testosterone is not Testosterone" Long esters vs Short esters, Broscience Debunked.
”In 1954, a scientist named Reifstein and his team conducted a study comparing Testosterone Enanthate with Testosterone Propionate. The results of these studies were that Test Enanthate resulted in total nitrogen retention of 1.76g/day vs Propionate only 1.02g/day. They also found that the duration of anabolic activity was 33 days with test e and 12 days with prop.(1) These were with the same doses 200mgs of each. Overall, the longer ester retains more nitrogen (muscle gain) per day then shorts, and remains active in the body for much longer. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that if something causes higher levels of nitrogen retention, and hangs around in your body longer, it's going to be more anabolic. Real life experience tells us the same. Think of a prop kicker, of 150mgs every other day, or just a prop cycle. I've done 6 week kickers while waiting for 500mgs a week of test e to kick in, and the results of the Propionate are not even close to the same as the long esters. Despite the same dosage AND 150mgs of prop, every other day (525mgs total per week) actually contains more pure test then 500mgs of test Enanthate due to the ester weights,.”
Seem that longer esters are more anabolicc then..?
”In 1954, a scientist named Reifstein and his team conducted a study comparing Testosterone Enanthate with Testosterone Propionate. The results of these studies were that Test Enanthate resulted in total nitrogen retention of 1.76g/day vs Propionate only 1.02g/day. They also found that the duration of anabolic activity was 33 days with test e and 12 days with prop.(1) These were with the same doses 200mgs of each. Overall, the longer ester retains more nitrogen (muscle gain) per day then shorts, and remains active in the body for much longer. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that if something causes higher levels of nitrogen retention, and hangs around in your body longer, it's going to be more anabolic. Real life experience tells us the same. Think of a prop kicker, of 150mgs every other day, or just a prop cycle. I've done 6 week kickers while waiting for 500mgs a week of test e to kick in, and the results of the Propionate are not even close to the same as the long esters. Despite the same dosage AND 150mgs of prop, every other day (525mgs total per week) actually contains more pure test then 500mgs of test Enanthate due to the ester weights,.”
Seem that longer esters are more anabolicc then..?
PaintDrinker
Well-known Member
I believe long esters increase serum IGF-1 to a higher degree than prop as well. Not sure the method of action behind this, maybe one of the vets have read this and can confirm.
RekTest
Well-known Member
This.
Ive been pinning myself 16 times a week for the last couple months and honestly i want to kill myself
I couldn’t give evough of a shit about bodybuilding to inject for than 2-3 times a week max. Cruising I go as long as 1-2 weeks between pins.
AlexDavis43
Member
He already cleared that up by adjusting dose of test P vs test E.
And at ~100 mg/wk do you really think this will throw things out of whack?
AlexDavis43
Member
Topical scrotal testosterone is like straight DHT. Maybe off-topic, but method of delivery can have different effects.
AlexDavis43
Member
RekTest
Well-known Member
I waaaas thinking of upping my nnp dose.. 1ml morning 1ml night…
23 pins a week about to be spending more on needles/ syringes than I did on this 500ml bottle of npp lol
Sure but the short esters and TNE peak much higher from the same mg dose. I believe I read in a paper that a 25mg of test prop resulted in the same peak as a 110mg dose of enanthate. Obviously the enanthate has a more gradual decay though. But pinning the short ester with enough frequency (EOD?) would presumably result in similar auc as the long ester even at steady state levels. I've never actually done the calculation to determine that though.
Edit: Haha, I should have kept reading the thread. @readalot posted a graph showing the comparison of 25mg prop vs 110mg enanthate.
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Can't find the text. Didn't that study compare a single dose of 200mg of each though? If so, it would be a foolish comparison with an obvious outcome in favor of the long ester.
