Juice Junkie!!!

[Neodavid]

Deca,

Maybe true, but sounds more like general arguments everyone uses. Got any evidence? Experience of a lot of guys is that they slow way down in aging, and life is greatly enhanced.

I do agree it's addicting, and we need to not be controlled by it, but at the same time, these guys are not young punks without life experience, they are adults who should be able to do with their bodies as they please.

My only beef would be something on the order of motorcycle helmets. I'm all for guys not having to wear them, but if they get into an accident with me, I should have to pay for the brain damage. Neither do I want my health costs to go up because of guys on roids forever.

BUT, quite honestly I've never seen anything to indicate even long term abuse is anything different than plain old 'aging'. Heck, if they die young, at least they leave a good looking corpse.

Now if you want a really good beef, go read superman's thread. He's 19 and already addicted to roids for the rest of his life (an extreme exageration on my part).

Mentally, this stuff IS addicting, and youngsters can't handle it. Older juicers sometimes have trouble, as graybass is pointing out.

For me though, I gotta really respect the attitude, "F it, I'm going all out". If a guy has that kind of toughness, he can deal with whatever negatives come up and know for damn sure it was HIS idea. What I can't stand is someone who does something half hearted and then whines about the results.

I haven't traveled the long cycle road some of these guys have, so I don't know if I'll feel like stayin on all year round, but for now I'm generally against it. But once a guy really makes up his mind, I'm all for him.

Get some evidence this stuff hurts you long term, and I promise you GB and others will hear you. That's why they started this thread. Concerns.

This is why AAS are illegal. So that people dont abuse them a take them for retarded amounts of time. ie EVERYDAY.. ALL YEAR ROUND! What are you people thinking? Your body is not supose to run like that. For heavens sake people, if your not competing, try to only use roids 1-2 times a year! And for only 8-10 weeks! Unless you just love the idea of jamming a needle in your crusty old ass at the age of 60 cause you cant produce any god damn testosterone! Where are the mods on this thread?! Seriously mods.. is this what meso-rx is helping people do?! Natural chemical surrpression is not cool people! You will adversely effect your body, I garrentee it. And if you dont care about your body, then join the damn army and go and fight in Iraq, cause your gonna die someday.. right?!

 

[dzl66]

This is why AAS are illegal. So that people dont abuse them a take them for retarded amounts of time. ie EVERYDAY.. ALL YEAR ROUND! What are you people thinking? Your body is not supose to run like that. For heavens sake people, if your not competing, try to only use roids 1-2 times a year! And for only 8-10 weeks! Unless you just love the idea of jamming a needle in your crusty old ass at the age of 60 cause you cant produce any god damn testosterone! Where are the mods on this thread?! Seriously mods.. is this what meso-rx is helping people do?! Natural chemical surrpression is not cool people! You will adversely effect your body, I garrentee it. And if you dont care about your body, then join the damn army and go and fight in Iraq, cause your gonna die someday.. right?!

You should go do a steroid segment for Fox, 60 minutes or NBC they would appreciate your viewpoint in this election year...
If you are an MD with long term experience working with Pro BBers I will listen to ya

 

[graybass]

You tell him, dzl66, In this thread we voiced a lot of wide range opinions, and thats a good thing. I'm all for freedom of choice.
Me personally, all's I'm saying, is that I am going a little beyond the standard model! I won't be staying on for 10 straight yrs, but I'll be doing way more than
one ten week cycle a year. This is called freedom of choice. God Bless our Freedom!!
Also, most of the opinions voiced here (I did say most! LOL) were said by respected vets, whom have a lot of knowledge and experience.

Thank you my Brothers! We're getting smarter every day! graybass

 

[Deca]

Neo: Free choice is what america is all about. You could never think of doing the same things here as in China. That said, there is a difference between moderation and excessive use, especially when we are talking about one's health. ie Going our and killing people is different than tattoos even though they both deal with free will. One last note, I could never stand by and see a friend/stranger throw their life away just because they made up their mind about something.

dzl: How ignorant are you? What, you have to jump off a bridge first hand to know that it will hurt you?? You want evidence? Look at the top BB and ask them if they have to take shots for the rest of their lives. Look at what Bill Roberts and Will Llewellyn say about cycle use. For christ's sake, look what happened to the Mentzer boys! Open your eyes, because all the evidence is right here at meso-rx. And if you are too stupid to realize the dangers of AAS on your own, then why dont you just go take 3425126532145 iu of insulin right before you go to sleep. All the pro's do it! You should too! It will make you huge! Be sure not to eat any carbs when you do it.. that makes the whole process cancel out. And remeber, if someone says it is dangerous, go ahead and refer them to your spectacular witty comment about having them work for NBC or Fox or whoever, because that was truly genious. No... really.. it was..

Gray: I wasnt talking directly to you. Im sorry if you thought that. I just wanted to voice an opinion about the health risks assoicated with AAS, as non of these posts deal with the question 'is this healthy?' Tons of young adults/inexperience AAS users, read these posts and think "Im gonna roid it up all year round cause all these other guys are doing it" Personally, if you want to do this go ahead, but at least think of the consequenses. And for all the newbie people out there: Moderation is the key to life in everything.

 

[graybass]

Gear use

Deca, I got to hand it to you, well said! Some times we forget about the young people reading this and looking to us for info!
I agree, all things in moderation. If you took 300 asprins, it would kill you, or really f**k you up! I'm not going to do that, just because I can. (some might)

Thanks guys, we might not agree all the time, but we have some really knowledgable Bro's out there!

Graybass

 

[Neodavid]

I'm not sure what you are getting at here. What did I say that you believe is wrong?

If it's my respect for other people's rights to do what they want with their bodies, you should understand that nowhere did I condone abuse.

But I believe people have a right to choose for themselves, even if it kills them.

The real problem is, who makes the rules, and who punishes who. It's all politics and bullshit, no offense meant.

Arnold did roids like a madman, and now he's Gov. I'm for that.

People watch sports, and all the athletes are on roids. I don't happen to be for that, but everyone else in America pays huge money to watch them.

I'm bringing thes up because someone somewhere, puts people in jail for getting caught, and rewards others for not getting caught.

What the difference is between what I said and what you are saying eludes me. I can only see that you are against "people hurting themselves".

I'm not exactly for that either, but I'm MORE for freedom than I am for letting people control other people. MT. climbers, thrill seekers, bike riders, you name it, hurt and kill themselves all the time. Where do you draw the line? Is boxing wrong? Football? Soccer? (I won't mention golf, cause that is DEFINITELY wrong...) (grin)

Freedom of choice means I get to swing my arm around. It ends when it comes into contact with your nose. That's my philosophy. If I choose to kill myself, that's my business and not yours.

All that said, let me tell you that I happen to believe in moderation, but only in moderation. Life without passion and risk, is one damnable ugly thing.

Don't misconstrue this as pro excess. I'm not. BUT, I'm pro freedom, and some people ARE for excess, and so I have to say, it's their life... Who am I to control another human being.

See my rant on the 19 year old kid who is about to take roids. I jumped all over him. That's what I believe, we each get to speak, but in the end, THEY make the choice. Scream at them if you like, but if your arm hits their nose (send them to jail, whatever), I say that is wrong, and in America, incredibly hypocritical given the sports situation.

What do you find objectionable about that? To me this is what America is all about. I get to vote, and I will vote for the guy who offers the most personal freedom. Philosophically, I find anything less is hypocritical and self serving.

Neo: Free choice is what america is all about. You could never think of doing the same things here as in China. That said, there is a difference between moderation and excessive use, especially when we are talking about one's health. ie Going our and killing people is different than tattoos even though they both deal with free will. One last note, I could never stand by and see a friend/stranger throw their life away just because they made up their mind about something.

(snip)

Moderation is the key to life in everything.

 

[supwiz]

Decca obviously has done no research on the benefits and the total life change that ongoing hrt brings. With our strongly estrogenic society(enviromental chemicals,etc.), and research now showing without having ever done gear, men in the late thirties are already low testosterone(one of the contributors to all the infertility), and the correlation of low testosterone to insulin resistance, depression, impotence, and heart disease, many men to function ideally need to supplement tes for the rest of their lives. Sure it would be great if we didn't, but that's not reality. Tell that to the hypo-thyroid patient that needs to be on thyroid hormone the rest of their life because they can't produce enough natural T4/T3. There is literally reams of research on the benefits of trt. Should a 19 yr. old be doing gear? Heck no, let them train naturally-they should have tes coming out their ears. But let's not be equally ignorant and say it has no benefit for middle aged guys beyond cosmetics. And how difficult is it to give oneself a shot per week of tes for the rest of their life? Diabetics shot themselves up daily for life. Decca, give up the broad stroke brush and come to a sensible argument, let's not wash the baby out with the bath water. Greg B.

 

[Deca]

This is why I dont reply to threads.. People never understand what you are saying.

Neo: All I said was freedom of choice is what america is all about. If you want to do something in america.. pretty much you can. But the limits Im saying are that you cant injure other people even if you want to. Thats all Im saying! I dont care if you want to destroy your body, just know that if you destroy your body then you will look like a COMPLETE DUMBASS. Who has respect for the guy who smoked 50 years and now as lung cancer? Fuck it, if you want to kill yourself, fine do it. But just remember, you'll look like a dumbass to everyone around you. Thats it! I dont care about sports and roids. My first post said this. If you compete/profressional sport, then do what it takes! It's your job!

supwiz: You obviously did no reading on the previous posts. Hrt replacement therapy is fine.. if you need/want because you have low test levels at a certain age. But if you were a dumbass because you took 203948720397mg/week of roids for 10 years, well then you deserve it. Greg B, please give up the fast reading and come to the sensible argument that your brain can not handle that many characters.

 

[Neodavid]

That's kind of what I thought, but when you said "That's why AAS is illegal", it made me think you thought roids shouldn't be used at all.

I disagree that someone looks like a dumbass to everyone around them though. Hard to say for sure, and I figure you should give everyone the benefit of the doubt.

GB was just talking about going on a cycle sooner, and a bunch of guys chimed in, saying they go all year or more, but really you don't know why. Some might be for HRT, someone else might know a lot more than us and is doing exactly what he needs to do, safely. Who's to say.

I'm glad you spoke up. Otherwise it might look like the thread was just for all out rediculous abuse.

This is why I dont reply to threads.. People never understand what you are saying.

Neo: All I said was freedom of choice is what america is all about. If you want to do something in america.. pretty much you can. But the limits Im saying are that you cant injure other people even if you want to. Thats all Im saying! I dont care if you want to destroy your body, just know that if you destroy your body then you will look like a COMPLETE DUMBASS. Who has respect for the guy who smoked 50 years and now as lung cancer? Fuck it, if you want to kill yourself, fine do it. But just remember, you'll look like a dumbass to everyone around you. Thats it! I dont care about sports and roids. My first post said this. If you compete/profressional sport, then do what it takes! It's your job!

supwiz: You obviously did no reading on the previous posts. Hrt replacement therapy is fine.. if you need/want because you have low test levels at a certain age. But if you were a dumbass because you took 203948720397mg/week of roids for 10 years, well then you deserve it. Greg B, please give up the fast reading and come to the sensible argument that your brain can not handle that many characters.

 

[supwiz]

Decca, Such a clever boy! That was such a mature reply to my response on the need for trt regardless of why the person needs it-whether it's a genetic thing or a lifestyle choice. I'd like to see your face when your told a family member or good friend is dying from a disease that's at least partially due to poor choices. For christ's sake show some empathy, we all screw up and pay for them at some point-maybe you don't because somehow you are perfect. Your original reply was " take them for retarded amounts of time. ie everyday...all year around". You didn't specify whether it was a ongoing theraputic cycle or a person doing aas every day for health purposes. You read any longevity book/article and one of the major healthy things to do is take hormones everyday for the rest of your life to IMPROVE you health.( incidently the current understanding on taking insulin is to take it sub-q after the workout with carbs and protein, not your suggestion of no carbs because you'll " cancel the benefits". Maybe you didn't mean this and were just trying to be clever again) You should be clearer in your statements so we can respond appropiately. And lastly, I don't think I'd have any problem keeping up with you intellectually. Some of your points I can agree on. Cheers, Greg B.

 

[Deca]

First of all, let me say thankyou for the clever comment I made. I do strive myself on such perfections. As far as my name goes, it is only spelled with one "C". At first I thought that maybe you were trying to somehow be mean, thought it was clever, or sadly, had the inability to control your parkasins diesease. Upon reading your second delightfully 'clever' response, I can now safetly conclude that it is not one fault, but a mere combination of the three, laying heavly on the third. Anywho, let's not get off course too much with your lack of abilities, which Im sure your wife/boyfriend knows personally. I am glad however that you took the time to re-read my post to try to clearly understand what I had said, but unfortunatly you didn't read up far enough. As this thread deals with AAS for recreational pleasure, one would assume that is what they would be used for. And even if that wasnt enough, my previous post right before this said it more clearly. I know this is long, and must be a strain on all your inabilities, but I promise I will wrap it up soon. Just bare with me. Cmon, you can do it. Good? Ok we can continue now. As far as empathy goes, I have plenty. It just so happens that my grandparents died of lung cancer, and my other grandpa died of alcoholism (alcohol was the main contributing factor). It's not like they didnt know what they were doing was wrong. Ignorant/nieve/depressed it doesnt matter. If you make the deciesion to start smoking, and you get lung cancer, then its your fault. And for anyone that says they feel sorry for you, is lying. We live in a world of consequences. If you are too stupid to realize that, then you deserve everything that comes your way. Finally, just to clear things up on the insulin, if you hadnt notice, due to other inabilities of yours, I thought I made it quite clear that I was being sarcastic when I said to take 3425126532145 iu right before you went to bed. Especially when right after I mentioned the complete wrong thing to do; not to take any source of sugar. Of course this is all my fault in not writing out my repsonses more clearly. But just to be safe, I have included a fail-safe method just for you. If it is too clever for you, just write back and Im sure we can find something that works.

First of all, let me say thankyou for the clever comment I made. I do strive myself on such perfections. As far as my name goes, it is only spelled with one "C". At first I thought that maybe you were trying to somehow be mean, thought it was clever, or sadly, had the inability to control your parkasins diesease. Upon reading your second delightfully 'clever' response, I can now safetly conclude that it is not one fault, but a mere combination of the three, laying heavly on the third. Anywho, let's not get off course too much with your lack of abilities, which Im sure your wife/boyfriend knows personally. I am glad however that you took the time to re-read my post to try to clearly understand what I had said, but unfortunatly you didn't read up far enough. As this thread deals with AAS for recreational pleasure, one would assume that is what they would be used for. And even if that wasnt enough, my previous post right before this said it more clearly. I know this is long, and must be a strain on all your inabilities, but I promise I will wrap it up soon. Just bare with me. Cmon, you can do it. Good? Ok we can continue now. As far as empathy goes, I have plenty. It just so happens that my grandparents died of lung cancer, and my other grandpa died of alcoholism (alcohol was the main contributing factor). It's not like they didnt know what they were doing was wrong. Ignorant/nieve/depressed it doesnt matter. If you make the deciesion to start smoking, and you get lung cancer, then its your fault. And for anyone that says they feel sorry for you, is lying. We live in a world of consequences. If you are too stupid to realize that, then you deserve everything that comes your way. Finally, just to clear things up on the insulin, if you hadnt notice, due to other inabilities of yours, I thought I made it quite clear that I was being sarcastic when I said to take 3425126532145 iu right before you went to bed. Especially when right after I mentioned the complete wrong thing to do; not to take any source of sugar. Of course this is all my fault in not writing out my repsonses more clearly. But just to be safe, I have included a fail-safe method just for you. If it is too clever for you, just write back and Im sure we can find something that works.

Isnt this fun?!

 

[Neodavid]

(snip)

As far as empathy goes, I have plenty. It just so happens that my grandparents died of lung cancer, and my other grandpa died of alcoholism (alcohol was the main contributing factor). It's not like they didnt know what they were doing was wrong. Ignorant/nieve/depressed it doesnt matter. If you make the deciesion to start smoking, and you get lung cancer, then its your fault. And for anyone that says they feel sorry for you, is lying. We live in a world of consequences. If you are too stupid to realize that, then you deserve everything that comes your way.

(snip)

Isnt this fun?!

My bitch is you came in with an attitude of judging guys because they were on AAS long term, and you jumped to all kinds of conclusions, damning them and putting them down as fools.

You're summing up a complex problem in the guise of wisdom, but I think it's surface at best.

Wouldn't it be nice if it were that simple... we could judge everyone so coldly!

I'm not sure you really mean what you say, but since your grandparents died from their choices, you should just walk away and let them rot? Go watch some TV maybe? Assholes are a product of their own choices, why should YOU have to suffer for it?

The problem is, some people can smoke all their lives and not get cancer. Some people can eat bad food and not exercise, and not die of a heart attack. No one knows what they are predisposed to, but the one thing I know for sure is, you don't have the answers.

Moderation as you describe, is in the form of control and judgment, not love and education. Freedom is an absolute necessity, but your solution makes freedom impossible, and the hearts of men more like brutes who damn each other for making mistakes.

Life is more complicated than 'we are a product of our choices'. I had no choice in my parents being abusive alcoholics, nor how it took me 15 years to become aware of the sick way they raised me and how it affected all of my relationships.

I know guys who are saved by weighlifting and roids. It gives them something they can focus positively on. It helps them work through lifes probems.

But the main thing you are against is long term abuse, so again, I have to ask you where do you draw the line and decide who do judge and who to not judge?

You are glad AAS is illegal for that reason, long term abuse, right?

My point is, you CAN'T every judge anyone, for anything, because you just plain don't know what's going on and why. It's nice to judge, comfortable, and even pleasing. Love is harder. Understanding, patience, and kindness, lead to relationships that heal hearts and allow 'abuse' problems to go away.

The problem is not AAS abuse, that's merely a symptom of a broken life. Someone f'd them up somewhere, maybe even their own choices to hate or judge others. OR, they know more than you do, and are in no danger at all...

But we don't know, and if we judge, we become one of them, part of the problem.

Love and education are the only way, and relationship is the only cure.

My experience tells me some guys on AAS are seeking self-esteem and security. I find it in how women look at me being in shape. Makes me feel good, makes them treat me like something worthwhile. For some, being stronger than everyone else helps them feel good enough, and a part of life. Successful...

It's nice.

Long term abuse is a symptom, not about to be fixed by a rant against the guys doing it. If some of them are willing to die, that IS their choice, and I don't see how anyone could possibly take that choice away from them. But you can't assume anything really, you can't jump on them before you know them personally and are invited to speak into their lives.

I say we relax and talk without the personality conflicts and attacks, seeking understanding and relationship, in order that we can build one another up rather then tear down.

 

[turbojav]

For me though, I gotta really respect the attitude, "F it, I'm going all out". If a guy has that kind of toughness, he can deal with whatever negatives come up and know for damn sure it was HIS idea.


To me, toughness is staying off as long as you are on.

This issue NOT about real HRT, not about freedom, legality, morality or any of that. It's about guys not being able to cope with the bad feelings and loss of size/strength while coming off a cycle. Restoration of HPTA is uncomfortable and takes time, "bridging" or starting a cycle early feels good and happens right away. Being 40 years old makes me MORE concerned with protecting my natural testosterone production, not less.

 

[Neodavid]

Sure, that's the norm, the standard...

But some people would say YOU are wrong for doing it in the first place. In fact you can go to jail for what you are doing, now. I find that offensive.

All I'm saying is you either give the individual ALL rights to his own body, or you are controlling him. What you do with your life is your business, not mine, not anyone's, except those whom YOU choose to let into the circle of close relationship, where they have shown they respect and love you enough to earn speaking into your life.

Sir Edmund Hillary went up Everest though many people died trying before. HE made it.

If you make it, you are a hero (Arnold), if you don't, you die and people damn you for it (hypocrisy).

Live and let live, that's all.

Your bringing it all back around to a simple view that assumes guys are making decisions for the wrong reasons. GOOD!!!! LET THEM!!! That's how we learn, not by success, but by failure.

The biggest idiots I know, are successful people. Success breeds prejudice and judgment. A guy needs to fail and mess up a lot.

If someone is as you describe, just having a hard time coming off, then you got good words for them, Maybe just not for everyone is all I'm saying. Maybe I got to philosophical in responding to Deca and got off the main subject.

But I think that was the idea of the thread, a guy who's a vet, asking his bro's for strength and guidence. It helps to talk about this stuff with each other.

For me though, I gotta really respect the attitude, "F it, I'm going all out". If a guy has that kind of toughness, he can deal with whatever negatives come up and know for damn sure it was HIS idea.


To me, toughness is staying off as long as you are on.

This issue NOT about real HRT, not about freedom, legality, morality or any of that. It's about guys not being able to cope with the bad feelings and loss of size/strength while coming off a cycle. Restoration of HPTA is uncomfortable and takes time, "bridging" or starting a cycle early feels good and happens right away. Being 40 years old makes me MORE concerned with protecting my natural testosterone production, not less.

 

[turbojav]

But I think that was the idea of the thread, a guy who's a vet, asking his bro's for strength and guidence. It helps to talk about this stuff with each other.

I had a hard time coming off my last cycle. Low energy, bad moods. I had a new girlfriend and had trouble with erections for weeks. It was cool that she was understanding but I still felt terrible. A couple of times I did low dose shots of susp/prop. cause I knew it was fast-acting, would make me feel better, and would clear my system quickly.. Eventually time, Clomid, and tribulis (not sure if that worked though) got me back to normal.

I'm not saying you are a bad person if you stay on. You are absolutely right, the majority of people would say we are bad for just sticking a needle in our leg. We don't have the luxury of mainstream journaled medical articles on AAS so we have to try to be as scientific as possible amongst ourselves. So I guess I'm just saying, if you are trying to stay off and it sucks bad, one option is to do a very low dose of a fast-acting test.

 

[Neodavid]

Wow, that sucks bro... I guess I got lucky on my first cycle. Recovered and had no sides, though lost half, maybe more(?) of what I gained.

I was only on 500 test though, so small cycle compared to some I've heard on here.

Hey, did you use HCG to bring the boys up fast? If you didn't, maybe try that next time? (if I'm advising a vet, my apologies)

I had a hard time coming off my last cycle. Low energy, bad moods. I had a new girlfriend and had trouble with erections for weeks. It was cool that she was understanding but I still felt terrible. A couple of times I did low dose shots of susp/prop. cause I knew it was fast-acting, would make me feel better, and would clear my system quickly.. Eventually time, Clomid, and tribulis (not sure if that worked though) got me back to normal.

I'm not saying you are a bad person if you stay on. You are absolutely right, the majority of people would say we are bad for just sticking a needle in our leg. We don't have the luxury of mainstream journaled medical articles on AAS so we have to try to be as scientific as possible amongst ourselves. So I guess I'm just saying, if you are trying to stay off and it sucks bad, one option is to do a very low dose of a fast-acting test.

 

[turbojav]

Hey, did you use HCG to bring the boys up fast? If you didn't, maybe try that next time? (if I'm advising a vet, my apologies)

I'm not a vet, it's cool, and I'm sure they don't mind a little input now and then. I used HCG but my timing was off. Now I do a run of HCG mid-cycle and then another one at the end of cycle. For keeping gains I'm concentrating on eating right, before I would just make sure I got to the gym even if I was feeling weatk and didn't worry about the eating part.

 

[Neodavid]

Really... why not the last 3 weeks, continuing for 2 more til you take clomid? Mid cycle... just to give em a partial boost for later?

I'm not a vet, it's cool, and I'm sure they don't mind a little input now and then. I used HCG but my timing was off. Now I do a run of HCG mid-cycle and then another one at the end of cycle. For keeping gains I'm concentrating on eating right, before I would just make sure I got to the gym even if I was feeling weatk and didn't worry about the eating part.

 

[VDC]

I'm 52,,,Been on a self administered HRT for a year now,,,Feeling great on the whole,,,my advice, if you go back on is, to make sure you use HCG throughout at 500iu's a day,,,Keep those boys working so you don't sterilize yourself and it quickens the PCT time by half,,,Oh and if you go back on it will work,,,VDC

 

[Neodavid]

Thanks man, that is what I want to do, though Einstein seemed to be against daily doses, saying they were merely for aesthetic reasons. But I find the psychology of it important too, visa vi, If my boys are up to size, I feel free to quite anytime in a cycle, no planning, just start taking clomid 2 weeks later. I will feel more normal, if I'm full size all the time.

I know high doses can desensitize your boys to LH, but at 500iu I haven't read of any problems (yet).

And buddy, thanks for being such a stand up guy in general. Your one of the hidden gems in this forum.

I'm 52,,,Been on a self administered HRT for a year now,,,Feeling great on the whole,,,my advice, if you go back on is, to make sure you use HCG throughout at 500iu's a day,,,Keep those boys working so you don't sterilize yourself and it quickens the PCT time by half,,,Oh and if you go back on it will work,,,VDC