liver

[askari]

I'm starting to take 50mg/day QV Winny tabs (divided over 2 or 3 times a day) and 50mg/day proviron. I'm going to stay on both for 40 days. Do I need to do anything to help my liver, and if so, what should I do. Thanks.

 

[patsfan]

I'm starting to take 50mg/day QV Winny tabs (divided over 2 or 3 times a day) and 50mg/day proviron. I'm going to stay on both for 40 days. Do I need to do anything to help my liver, and if so, what should I do. Thanks.

Oh yeah baby. Go to wal-mart and buy some milk thistle. Take 1000mgs a day throughout the day. A bottle of 100 is like $6.

Dont take any 17aa's without it.

 

[askari]

Oh yeah baby. Go to wal-mart and buy some milk thistle. Take 1000mgs a day throughout the day. Abottle of 100 is like $6.

Thanks!

 

[maxx]

Thanks!

also there is a product called liv52 that good for that liver.

maxx

 

[askari]

also there is a product called liv52 that good for that liver.

maxx

I'm also taking 300mg/wk of Decca and 600mg/wk of cyp (both injected twice weekly) and .25mg/day of Arimidex and 20mg/day of Nolva.

People talk about Proviron as an aromatase blocker. Can/should I stop taking the arimidex now that I've added the proviron?

 

[patsfan]

also there is a product called liv52 that good for that liver.

maxx

Also good. Ive know people with hep c that took it for 6 months and the hep didnt even show up on a blood test (of course it was still there).

 

[patsfan]

I'm also taking 300mg/wk of Decca and 600mg/wk of cyp (both injected twice weekly) and .25mg/day of Arimidex and 20mg/day of Nolva.

People talk about Proviron as an aromatase blocker. Can/should I stop taking the arimidex now that I've added the proviron?

I would up the deca another 100. 300 is kinda low.

 

[askari]

I would up the deca another 100. 300 is kinda low.

Thanks for the input!

Where can I get liv52?

 

[patsfan]

Thanks for the input!

Where can I get liv52?

Same place..wal-mart. Its alot more money compared to milk thistle and they both work the same IMO but it is up to you.

Any major drug store with carry both ( CVS, Walgreens..ect)

 

[askari]

Same place..wal-mart. Its alot more money compared to milk thistle and they both work the same IMO but it is up to you.

Any major drug store with carry both ( CVS, Walgreens..ect)

Hey. Sorry to jump around so much.

Are there symptoms I would notice if my liver were starting to have problems? Or can I only know from a blood test?

 

[patsfan]

Hey. Sorry to jump around so much.

Are there symptoms I would notice if my liver were starting to have problems? Or can I only know from a blood test?

Blood test.I am a recovering alcoholic (5 years and did alot of damage over the years)so I notice if I try to take a heavy oral like dbol or drols the I get a flutter of sorts in my side..not painfull but enough to keep me away from 17aa's all together.

 

[maxx]

Blood test.I am a recovering alcoholic (5 years and did alot of damage over the years)so I notice if I try to take a heavy oral like dbol or drols the I get a flutter of sorts in my side..not painfull but enough to keep me away from 17aa's all together.

also if you bruise real easy,and yellowing of the skin.

but bro unless you have really abused aas and alcohol for years,or unless you have a genetic problem passed down,you will not run into any problems.if it make you feel better go to the doc and get you liver values tested.

maxx

 

[askari]

also if you bruise real easy,and yellowing of the skin.

but bro unless you have really abused aas and alcohol for years,or unless you have a genetic problem passed down,you will not run into any problems.if it make you feel better go to the doc and get you liver values tested.

maxx

Nah, I'm not extremely concerned, and I haven't been abusing aas for years and I hardly drink. I just exploring the subject and trying to assess and manage the risk.

Thanks for everything in the thread, guys!

 

[MaxRep]

People talk about Proviron as an aromatase blocker. Can/should I stop taking the arimidex now that I've added the proviron?

Proviron is not an aromatase blocker to the same degree of something like arimidex or letrozole. IMO and personal experience, it does a very poor job of reducing estrogen unless you're taking at least 100mg's/day. Contrast the effectiveness of that with something like arimidex which needs only .25mg/day to be effective.

Also, remember proviron is an oral alkylated steroid. Actually it's DHT with a 1-methyl. So while not as bad as taking 2 17aa steroids, taking proviron and another oral steroid will cause additional stress to the liver. Be liberal in your use of milk thistle and liv52.

MaxRep

 

[Quasimoto]

Blood test.I am a recovering alcoholic (5 years and did alot of damage over the years)so I notice if I try to take a heavy oral like dbol or drols the I get a flutter of sorts in my side..not painfull but enough to keep me away from 17aa's all together.

I have read a few reports that actually make claim that Milk Thistle is worthless. It claims to work based on the same mechanism that supplements like "chitosan " does. It its said to have a negative charge, and as the milk thistle passes through the liver it use "valence" to draw the impurities near the MT and is metabolized as Hydrogen and water, same as alcohol and GHB. I have never seen studies to back up the claim that it works as its supposed to, because of what happens to the MT as it passes through the other portions of the stomach digestive tract.
the shit is cheap enough to use most of the time, but i havent EVER noticed a difference when "on it" or "off it" . I would advise instead just stay heavy into the water , be careful with your diet, keep the fats moderate and you'll be fine without the Milk thistle...

 

[tHe_ShOcKeR]

i don't think you're supposed to "feel" if your liver is in a bad state. but since the shit is so cheap, it wouldn't hurt to run it. better safe than sorry. and, like quasi said, keep the water flowing and the diet goin!

HOLY SHIT THAT RHYMED! kick Ass!!

 

[MaxRep]

I have read a few reports that actually make claim that Milk Thistle is worthless. It claims to work based on the same mechanism that supplements like "chitosan " does. It its said to have a negative charge, and as the milk thistle passes through the liver it use "valence" to draw the impurities near the MT and is metabolized as Hydrogen and water, same as alcohol and GHB. I have never seen studies to back up the claim that it works as its supposed to, because of what happens to the MT as it passes through the other portions of the stomach digestive tract.
the shit is cheap enough to use most of the time, but i havent EVER noticed a difference when "on it" or "off it" . I would advise instead just stay heavy into the water , be careful with your diet, keep the fats moderate and you'll be fine without the Milk thistle...

I'm wondering if you're really researched this and what reports claimed it was "worthless"?

Certainly, as a natural product, it may not be as effective as some drugs however, the medical literature is full of case studies and clinical trials which found milk thistle to be beneficial. Posted below is just one of many such scientific studies showing the benefits of milk thistle.

MaxRep

________________________________________________________________


1: J Hepatol. 1989 Jul;9(1):105-13.
Randomized controlled trial of silymarin treatment in patients with cirrhosis of the liver.

Ferenci P, Dragosics B, Dittrich H, Frank H, Benda L, Lochs H, Meryn S, Base W, Schneider B.

1st Department of Gastroenterology and Hepatology, University of Vienna, Austria.

Silymarin, the active principle of the milk thistle Silybum marianum, protects experimental animals against various hepatotoxic substances. To determine the effect of silymarin on the outcome of patients with cirrhosis, a double blind, prospective, randomized study was performed in 170 patients with cirrhosis. 87 patients (alcoholic 46, non-alcoholic 41; 61 male, 26 female; Child A, 47; B, 37; C, 3; mean age 57) received 140 mg silymarin three times daily. 83 patients (alcoholic 45, non-alcoholic 38; 62 male, 21 female; Child A, 42; B, 32; C, 9: mean age 58) received a placebo. Non-compliant patients and patients who failed to come to a control were considered as 'drop outs' and were withdrawn from the study. All patients received the same treatment until the last patient entered had finished 2-years of treatment. The mean observation period was 41 months. There were 10 drop outs in the placebo group and 14 in the treatment group. In the placebo group, 37 (+2 drop outs) patients had died, and in 31 of these, death was related to liver disease. In the treatment group, 24 (+4 drop outs) had died, and in 18 of these, death was related to liver disease. The 4-year survival rate was 58 +/- 9% (S.E.) in silymarin-treated patients and 39 +/- 9% in the placebo group (P = 0.036). Analysis of subgroups indicated that treatment was effective in patients with alcoholic cirrhosis (P = 0.01) and in patients initially rated 'Child A' (P = 0.03). No side effects of drug treatment were observed
Publication Types:
Clinical Trial
Randomized Controlled Trial

PMID: 2671116 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

 

[Quasimoto]

I'm wondering if you're really researched this and what reports claimed it was "worthless"?

Certainly, as a natural product, it may not be as effective as some drugs however, the medical literature is full of case studies and clinical trials which found milk thistle to be beneficial. Posted below is just one of many such scientific studies showing the benefits of milk thistle.

MaxRep

________________________________________________________________

Beneficial for what Max? protecting the liver against the contraction/development of liver disease or liver function ? NO, nowhere in the study you posted did it maintain that..


Beneficial for the treatment of existing liver problems;
Comprehensive review by the U.S. Agency for Healthcare Research and Quality (AHRQ) recently identified 16 scientific studies on the use of milk thistle for the treatment of various forms of liver disease. A European standardized extract of milk thistle was used in most of the trials.

Problems in study design (such as small numbers of participants, variations in the causes of liver disease, and differences in dosing and duration of milk thistle therapy) made it difficult to draw any definitive conclusions. However, five of seven studies evaluating milk thistle for alcoholic liver disease found significant improvements in liver function.Those with the mildest form of the disease appeared to improve the most. Milk thistle was less effective for those with severe liver disease such as cirrhosis. Cirrhosis is characterized by scarring and permanent, non-reversible damage to the liver. It is often referred to as end-stage liver disease.

This isnt exactly my idea of "protecting the liver" . What did bodybuilders do before these " wonder herbs " were released in the supplement market ? They practiced safer usage, and kept there lifestyles healthier and fluid intake high . No supplement should be used as a crutch for bad lifestyle decision. How many posts have you read of dudes that havent came off the shit in Yrs, and other bros will tell them, its cool man, use some "MILK THISTLE " .Thats one of my fucking points bro - Thanks for the input though.

 

[bronco944]

personally at 50 mg'ed of winny and proviron for only 40 days i dont think youll need any liver protectants at all. unless you allready ahve some type of liver problem from drinkin, disease, or other liver damaging meds. milk thistle is cheap and that alone would be more than enough to protect you at those dosages and for that short of a duration. but again i dont think its even neccessary. you wont even come close to seeing any physical sides of liver damage from that like some were mentioning like jaundace (yellowing of skin and eyes) or easy bruising. only think youll notice is on blood work with will show that your liver values wre elevated, but most likely not enough to cause concern. id worry more about the negative effects on your cholesterol and hair thinning than i would your liver.

 

[MaxRep]

Quasi,
Actually, your points were:

That you've read reports which "claim that Milk Thistle is worthless."
and,
you "have never seen studies to back up the claim that it works"
and,
"you'll be fine without the Milk thistle..."

Which I simply pointed out is either misleading, or shows a lack of research, and/or is bad advice... bro. But thank you for your input anyway.

Also, as far as wondering what people did before these "wonder herbs" as you call them, were around... milk thistle has been used for liver ailments for hundreds of years.

There is currently an ongoing, phase 2 trial with milk thistle which anyone interested in can review at "www.clinicaltrials.gov".
From the study design:
"It is hypothesized that silymarin will not lead to clearance of HCV infections but can prevent progression of liver disease in participants with chronic HCV hepatitis and, in some cases, reverse hepatic lesions that are already present, as well as improving the quality of life in individuals who use this dietary supplement."

I would think that any cheap, easy to find, easy to take supplement which may "reverse hepatic lesions" and "improve quality of life" and is currently undergoing government testing, would be a good addition to a AAS cycle. Hepatic lessions, by the way, can occur with oral steroid abuse.

Quasi, I will say we agree that using milk thistle or any other "protectant" is not going to make up for abusing steroids. Moderate dosages, reasonable time frames, staying away from concurrent use of alcohol, drinking plenty of water and such things are the foundation for responsible AAS usage.

MaxRep