Low T high e2 natty

[Jurgen]

Im 6’5 237lbs 16% bf. Bench 295 x2, dL 405, haven’t maxed on squat but rep 315x8.
Been collecting as much knowledge as possible before starting aas.
So far I’ve gotten test cyp 250, 10k iu of hcg, lots of clomid and nolva, Arimidex and Aromasin and cialis for bp if needed. All from reputable sources/Pharma. I had planned on running a 400-500 a week for 10 weeks and to pct afterwords. Been leaning towards 400 mg/wk.
So I’ve gotten everything I need and went to get my pre cycle bloods done.
came back that my t level was 377 ng/dcl which isn’t a level that’s going to increase as I’m getting older and am now considering just b&c from here on. I’m only 29 and I feel my lvls should be much higher then that. And my e2 came back at 69 (20-42range) which also seems pretty high although I’ve seen limits for fertile males to be up to 80 being normal.
Im prepared to trt for the rest of my life if I have to.
if anyone has any input or advice or just wants to rag on me I’m all ears!
Posted in asf as well but I feel I could get some straight answers here if I don’t over there.

 

[Iron Frenchie]

I would definitely get retested. If you ordered a normal E2 test that’s made for woman and men should use the sensitive E2 test. Without a sensitive the numbers can be off by a lot.

Next you need to recheck your total test with LC/MS/MS method and get your free test numbers. Without all this you only have half the picture. Would also be nice to see you SHBG but you can get a good idea of it with your free test numbers. Make sure to Test early in the morning with good rest. There’s a thousand things that can effect your test levels.

Post the blood work if you can.

 

[Jurgen]

I was sure to get about 8 hours of sleep the night before and of course was fasted for the test.
Also I take 5-10g of creatine a day, 10g on training days
I’ll check try and find the test on mdlab

 

[Old]

A second test is always a good idea since there is a lot of variation.

Otherwise, since your are not symptomatic of an E2 problem, that level isn't a concern - but with TRT it will like go up proportionately.

As far are your T level goes, you "feel my lvls should be much higher then that". But remember that it is just a number. Some do excellent on that whereas other don't. It comes down to symptoms. That said ...

Since your T/E2 ratio is this way (with presumption next test will be similar) then why not try anastrozole? It could double your T without messing up your HPT, etc. Why pin now when not needed yet? See where it takes you especially since you are considering only 400mg/wk. One can always take it further later

Note this comment: Safety and Effectiveness of Testosterone at 1000 Milligrams per Week - MESO-Rx

"Furthermore, in double blind studies and so forth, doses of less than 300 mg/week generally have resulted in nothing"​

 

[Jurgen]

I can understand that. But now I’m just considering 500-600mg pw lol.
joking aside, doubling to 600 ng/dcl natural still won’t change my results lifting especially if 300mg wouldn’t change it. If I want results which is what it comes down to, I need to run 500-600. I’m not just trying to feel good about the number.
I feel I’m close to my natural limit and gains are going to be painfully slow from here on if I maintain. All the formulas and websites I’ve checked say I’m already passed said genetic limit. Even if I was 10% bf at 225 lbs I’m well past it. 18” arms without a pump etc.

A second test is always a good idea since there is a lot of variation.

Otherwise, since your are not symptomatic of an E2 problem, that level isn't a concern - but with TRT it will like go up proportionately.

As far are your T level goes, you "feel my lvls should be much higher then that". But remember that it is just a number. Some do excellent on that whereas other don't. It comes down to symptoms. That said ...

Since your T/E2 ratio is this way (with presumption next test will be similar) then why not try anastrozole? It could double your T without messing up your HPT, etc. Why pin now when not needed yet? See where it takes you especially since you are considering only 400mg/wk. One can always take it further later

Note this comment: Safety and Effectiveness of Testosterone at 1000 Milligrams per Week - MESO-Rx

"Furthermore, in double blind studies and so forth, doses of less than 300 mg/week generally have resulted in nothing"​

 

[Old]

I can understand that. But now I’m just considering 500-600mg pw lol.
joking aside, doubling to 600 ng/dcl natural still won’t change my results lifting especially if 300mg wouldn’t change it. If I want results which is what it comes down to, I need to run 500-600. I’m not just trying to feel good about the number.
I feel I’m close to my natural limit and gains are going to be painfully slow from here on if I maintain. All the formulas and websites I’ve checked say I’m already passed said genetic limit. Even if I was 10% bf at 225 lbs I’m well past it. 18” arms without a pump etc.

Your results seem good. Myself with natural T of 450+ was thin, weak, and ultimately ended up with osteoporosis in every bone they look at. Docs say I've high T metabolism (i.e. wasted T).

You seem to have good T utilization to get those results with 377ng/dl. Imaging if you could 'naturally' double that. While AIs aren't natural 50% increase is common and there are cases of double. And again, one can take it further later. AAS have more complications and AIs.

300mg/wk might take your average to ~1500 ng/dl. Bill Roberts did not list the studies he referred to so we don't know about what these bodybuilder had as 'natty'. Also, you do not yet know what 600ng/dl would do for your lifting (unless you have prior tests).

 

[Jurgen]

You’re right I’m not sure what an increase in natural T would do. But I know what close to super physiological levels with 300mg have done for others. So I could do that and maybe get a placebobolin effect and gain a lb or two in a couple months or I can just try a cycle. I guess my question now is should I pct after this 600mg a cycle or cruise? I appreciate your time and advice @Old

Your results seem good. Myself with natural T of 450+ was thin, weak, and ultimately ended up with osteoporosis in every bone they look at. Docs say I've high T metabolism (i.e. wasted T).

You seem to have good T utilization to get those results with 377ng/dl. Imaging if you could 'naturally' double that. While AIs aren't natural 50% increase is common and there are cases of double. And again, one can take it further later. AAS have more complications and AIs.

300mg/wk might take your average to ~1500 ng/dl. Bill Roberts did not list the studies he referred to so we don't know about what these bodybuilder had as 'natty'. Also, you do not yet know what 600ng/dl would do for your lifting (unless you have prior tests).

 

[chocolatemalt]

Im 6’5 237lbs 16% bf. Bench 295 x2, dL 405, haven’t maxed on squat but rep 315x8.
Been collecting as much knowledge as possible before starting aas.
So far I’ve gotten test cyp 250, 10k iu of hcg, lots of clomid and nolva, Arimidex and Aromasin and cialis for bp if needed. All from reputable sources/Pharma. I had planned on running a 400-500 a week for 10 weeks and to pct afterwords. Been leaning towards 400 mg/wk.
So I’ve gotten everything I need and went to get my pre cycle bloods done.
came back that my t level was 377 ng/dcl which isn’t a level that’s going to increase as I’m getting older and am now considering just b&c from here on. I’m only 29 and I feel my lvls should be much higher then that. And my e2 came back at 69 (20-42range) which also seems pretty high although I’ve seen limits for fertile males to be up to 80 being normal.
Im prepared to trt for the rest of my life if I have to.
if anyone has any input or advice or just wants to rag on me I’m all ears!
Posted in asf as well but I feel I could get some straight answers here if I don’t over there.

You're right, 377 ng/dl at 29 yrs old is extremely low. Check out the 2nd chart at this link:

Testosterone: What's a Normal Testosterone Level in Men? | The Art of Manliness

You'll notice that the 25-29 age group has a 5th-percentile T level of 388. You're lower than that. Super sucky.

And that doesn't even account for sliding T levels population-wide that nearly all these studies and nearly all docs ignore. All of these data sets are contaminated with those sliding levels -- the sets from the 90's will be lower than those from the 70's even for the same age groups, and recent ones will be even lower -- so that "normal" levels for the population are misleadingly lower than what would be natty if we all grew up 150 years ago before estrongic hormone disruptors started dragging our T levels into the gutter. More clearly: None of us, not a single one, is "natty". We've all been fucked with. So those numbers in the studies are abnormally low. Fifty years ago the 5% mark for 25-29 might've been 460 instead of 388, for instance. Who knows. Our fathers and grandfathers really were more manly than us right out of the womb. Anyway, I'm madly digressing but check out this link for more "you ain't and have never been natty" info:

Why Your Testosterone Levels are Lower Than You Think (and what to do about it) - Bold and Determined

If I were you I'd start w/ the advice you've already gotten:

- retest with LC/MS for both T and E2
- give AI therapy a shot right away for a few weeks each on a few compounds (one at a time of course): e.g. anastrozole and aromasin (check lipids too with those)
- give SERM therapy a shot if you're curious: clomid @ 25mg/day
- if those results are lame, try HCG + aromasin as TRT

I'd never settle for 377 ng/dl now, let alone the further declines you'll get from age and gear use. Commit to TRT for life, and if one of those options above can work that'll save you from a lot of oil pinning over the years when off-cycle. Also, since you've been stuck at 5th-percentile till now, why not aim for 95th-percentile (1000 ng/dl) since you're going through all the hassle of TRT?

After finding what works for TRT, then start a cycle IMO. Easier to do the TRT experiments now when hormonally stable rather than post-cycle when PCT has levels flying across the spectrum and might take 4 wks or 4 mos to stabilize -- unpredictable.

 

[Jurgen]

I appreciate the time you took to respond to my concerns. Funny enough I had already stumbled across that exact first link. The second one I think I really needed. I’ve been a bit nervous and anxious to start my cycle and trt. But I’ve pretty much have come to the decision to run my cycle and attempt to pct for a month after and if doesn’t work then trt. The next blood test I plan on getting will be the one 4-5 weeks into my cycle. In which case I’ll probably be starting ai a little earlier then some would suggest during a cycle 2or3 weeks in or maybe first 1-2 injections then pick back up again around week 3 or 4. If I can’t get to at least pre cycle levels within a month then I’ll be going the trt route and plan my next cycle. My goals aren’t just to have a decent level. I’ve been interested in competing one day since I was a kid and realized too late how unobtainable my goals were natural. Who knows I May already be too old.
Thanks for the responses and suggestions.

You're right, 377 ng/dl at 29 yrs old is extremely low. Check out the 2nd chart at this link:

Testosterone: What's a Normal Testosterone Level in Men? | The Art of Manliness

You'll notice that the 25-29 age group has a 5th-percentile T level of 388. You're lower than that. Super sucky.

And that doesn't even account for sliding T levels population-wide that nearly all these studies and nearly all docs ignore. All of these data sets are contaminated with those sliding levels -- the sets from the 90's will be lower than those from the 70's even for the same age groups, and recent ones will be even lower -- so that "normal" levels for the population are misleadingly lower than what would be natty if we all grew up 150 years ago before estrongic hormone disruptors started dragging our T levels into the gutter. More clearly: None of us, not a single one, is "natty". We've all been fucked with. So those numbers in the studies are abnormally low. Fifty years ago the 5% mark for 25-29 might've been 460 instead of 388, for instance. Who knows. Our fathers and grandfathers really were more manly than us right out of the womb. Anyway, I'm madly digressing but check out this link for more "you ain't and have never been natty" info:

Why Your Testosterone Levels are Lower Than You Think (and what to do about it) - Bold and Determined

If I were you I'd start w/ the advice you've already gotten:

- retest with LC/MS for both T and E2
- give AI therapy a shot right away for a few weeks each on a few compounds (one at a time of course): e.g. anastrozole and aromasin (check lipids too with those)
- give SERM therapy a shot if you're curious: clomid @ 25mg/day
- if those results are lame, try HCG + aromasin as TRT

I'd never settle for 377 ng/dl now, let alone the further declines you'll get from age and gear use. Commit to TRT for life, and if one of those options above can work that'll save you from a lot of oil pinning over the years when off-cycle. Also, since you've been stuck at 5th-percentile till now, why not aim for 95th-percentile (1000 ng/dl) since you're going through all the hassle of TRT?

After finding what works for TRT, then start a cycle IMO. Easier to do the TRT experiments now when hormonally stable rather than post-cycle when PCT has levels flying across the spectrum and might take 4 wks or 4 mos to stabilize -- unpredictable.

 

[The Terminator]

Mmhmm all I see is whining about a number on a single piece of paper...what are the symptoms or are you simply trying to change what a number on a piece of paper says, you know after one test which tells you everything of course lol

 

[Jurgen]

Well there are certain things that I considered normal but could now be explained as a symptom. But it’s clear you don’t really care to hear it either way .
Do I know the number on my test is considered low, yes that is a low number. Do I know why it is or have blood tests that could explain why it is, no. I could post again that I don’t really care about the number but maybe the 3rd times a charm? The main concern was about pcting back or close to current homeostasis being worth it considering how I may feel now at my current levels.

Mmhmm all I see is whining about a number on a single piece of paper...what are the symptoms or are you simply trying to change what a number on a piece of paper says, you know after one test which tells you everything of course lol

 

[chocolatemalt]

The number still matters even w/o symptoms. Low T has all sorts of long term negative health impacts.

I'm a bit new around here but I assume all these studies have been posted and talked to death already, no?

 

[Jurgen]

I’m sure they have. I’ve done a lot of my own looking around and reading about it already. Really only saying I don’t care about the number itself as I’m going to be cruising at a trt dose if the number doesn’t get higher a month after pct.

The number still matters even w/o symptoms. Low T has all sorts of long term negative health impacts.

I'm a bit new around here but I assume all these studies have been posted and talked to death already, no?

 

[The Terminator]

Well there are certain things that I considered normal but could now be explained as a symptom. But it’s clear you don’t really care to hear it either way .
Do I know the number on my test is considered low, yes that is a low number. Do I know why it is or have blood tests that could explain why it is, no. I could post again that I don’t really care about the number but maybe the 3rd times a charm? The main concern was about pcting back or close to current homeostasis being worth it considering how I may feel now at my current levels.

Just sounds like you’re falling victim to the bro scientists and drug dealing “doctors” that think you need to have like >1500ng/dL to be “healthy.”

Anyway my point was to get you to realize you are fixated on numbers, from one test. You know that same sample tested twice could yield different results. That’s why a real dr would have you tested multiple times over a period of time.

 

[chocolatemalt]

Just sounds like you’re falling victim to the bro scientists and drug dealing “doctors” that think you need to have like >1500ng/dL to be “healthy.”

You’re straw-manning this discussion because you have an axe to grind against some TRT docs aiming for >1500 (they exist? ok...) Same as the other thread. But no one is talking about that here except you.

 

[Sworder]

The number still matters even w/o symptoms.

No Doctor will treat you if you don't have any symptoms!

Low T has all sorts of long term negative health impacts.

Health impacts? AKA SYMPTOMS?!?!!? Lol you truly are dumb!

 

[The Terminator]

You’re straw-manning this discussion because you have an axe to grind against some TRT docs aiming for >1500 (they exist? ok...) Same as the other thread. But no one is talking about that here except you.

Don’t have any “axe” to grind, just trying to tell the op to stop focusing on numbers.

 

[PescaPump]

@Jurgen

I am currently dealing with non-AAS related low test-high E myself.
How were you feeling before you started thinking about TRT? With your size and lift numbers it seems you were at least making the best out of low T.
Interested in how things turned out for you and what path you took...

 

[Jurgen]

@PescaPump I felt pretty normal tbh. I never went through with a cycle or trt yet. Been considering getting another blood test to see where I’m at now. I’ve just been eating clean and doing a mini cut down to 228 and my lifts are still the same. Still take my regular supplements protein with bcaa’s and creatine.
I did get in contact with trtnation and they wanted to get me on 200 mg every week right away but idk if I’m ready to commit to that. Seeing what I can do naturally first. If I get another test that looks low with more info like total test etc then I may look into actually doing trt.

 

[PescaPump]

@PescaPump I felt pretty normal tbh. I never went through with a cycle or trt yet. Been considering getting another blood test to see where I’m at now. I’ve just been eating clean and doing a mini cut down to 228 and my lifts are still the same. Still take my regular supplements protein with bcaa’s and creatine.
I did get in contact with trtnation and they wanted to get me on 200 mg every week right away but idk if I’m ready to commit to that. Seeing what I can do naturally first. If I get another test that looks low with more info like total test etc then I may look into actually doing trt.

Very cool man, lookin solid!
Sounds like you were patient and went the smart route, see what your body can do on its own. TRTNation will always be there waiting to sell people on something if things change.
You might just be genetically lucky and can process abnormal levels well. Personally I'm trying to chase away some of the common high estrogen symptoms. No gyno (thankfully!) but water weight, libido loss, and shitty moods.
im trying an OTC supp from Jacked Factory right now while waiting for some Adex and other things to arrive in the post.
Not terribly hopefully of it working as the supplement industry is full of scams and bunk products. But it was a cheap legal try while I wait.
I have before bloodwork and will get after in a couple weeks.
Thanks for the reponse!