Low Test for 18 year old?

[Glaim]

My Bun and Creatinine are always out of range as well. I've always attributed it to a high protein intake. Doctors have never raised an eyebrow about it.

 

[HeadDoc]

Sorry HeadDoc, this went right over my head. I was lost after the first word (Lipodystrophy). What does this study mean? And what is CHO?

Earthdog, old friend, I am still trying to understand the basic physiology of the leptin system. What I know is this: leptin is a hormone found in fat cells. If it is active, it burns fat as fuel. If inactive, more fat is stored and the cells get larger. The later sets a trend in the body that affects insulin use or perhaps misuse. More insulin is released and it drives more nutrient into the fat cells and they become larger. This results in a state known as hyperinsulinemia or insulin resistance, eventually. While this is going on, other hormonal systems are being effected: the metabolic system (thyroid) and gonadotropic system (estrogen in females and testosterone in males).

Another piece of this puzzle is to look at the hormonal cascade from cholesterol (CHO) to pregnenolone, etc., etc. If cholesterol is low, due to diet, environmental contaminants, or genetics, hormonal processes will be faulty or erratic. Alot of attention has been paid to too high cholesterol and not enough to the opposite. The dieting crazes of twenty years ago was low fat and high carb--any type of carb. I wonder how many of the young men with hypogonadal symptoms had their childhood physical developemnt influenced by this--perhaps their bodies didn't have the materials to jump into adolescence. This is very speculative on my part.

Feel free, as always, to point out any correctives to my understanding on the leptin system.

 

[Douche_Nutz]

After doing some research, I'm getting a little worried about renal failure. My BUN and Creatinine levels and GFR are indicative of renal failure, and I feel like most of the symptoms describe me. I have horrible gas and bloating and am actually going into a clinic to get food alergies tested, but I also have nails that turn extremely white in areas, itchy skin, and usually feel quite fatigued. It also puts you at a risk factor for anorexia, which I had; although, I don't think a past disease would count unless I had some renal failure developing in the past.

Here's some more info on renal failure:

http://www.diagnose-me.com/cond/C332375.html

Does anyone have any thoughts?

 

[HeadDoc]

take this with a grain of salt as it's coming from a non-physican.

People with endstage renal desease are fed on high protein diets. With the bloating you are experiencing, I'm assuming the foods are not digesting well. Go to the health food store and get some digestive enzymes--one that is for all the macronutrients (eg. lipase for fats, lactase for milk prducts, papain for protein, alpha-amylase for carbs). Just a combination of enzymes, not necessary the ones I've listed specifically. Take it with every meal and snack. If it works, you should experience a decrease in the bloating almost immediately. Then perhaps some of the other symptoms will follow.

And yeah, find a good doc.

 

[Glaim]

I'd like SWALE to expand on his reference to leptin's effects on testosterone. Growing up as a teenager I was severely overweight (6', 280lbs at about 35-40% bodyfat) I was horny as a goat and ended up losing weight and dropped to about 190. I still remained horny as a goat but when I began to get serious about lifting, nutrition, etc. I dropped to about 180, increased muscle mass substantially, and my testosterone levels seemed to plummet. Energy, strength, libido, etc. all started going down. Eventually I went in and tested in low. I'm almost certain I didn't have this earlier in my teen years though as I developed normally and was just as horny as any other kid my age. I was getting plenty of dietary fat, so I'm sure that wasn't the reason.

 

[stat1951]

Have no clue to how accurate this information is, but noted it previously and had bookmarked the page. Anyway, I specifically noted this section:

QUOTE:

Athletes and Low Testosterone

It seems counterintuitive, but male athletes typically have lower Testosterone levels than couch potatoes! Comparative studies have shown again and again that free and total T concentrations in chronically trained athletes (runners, weight lifters, rowers, cyclists, and swimmers) are surprisingly low. In fact, the Testosterone levels of trained subjects were only 60-85% of untrained men. While FSH and LH levels of trained men did not differ from untrained men, T levels were significantly affected. Some researchers attribute the discrepancy to alterations in hepatic and extrahepatic (muscles, skin) metabolism of Testosterone, which cant be compensated for by the athletes gonads. And, while exercise of any kind for as little as 5-30 minutes results in a significant increase in Testosterone, levels decline below baseline 15-60 minute later. Whats more, this reduction below baseline can last up to three days, depending on the duration and intensity of the exercise!
END QUOTE

http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do;jsessionid=806A0413BCEEC30C42AE95A78315159F.hydra?id=624358



Makes ya' wonder....

Larry

I'd like SWALE to expand on his reference to leptin's effects on testosterone. Growing up as a teenager I was severely overweight (6', 280lbs at about 35-40% bodyfat) I was horny as a goat and ended up losing weight and dropped to about 190. I still remained horny as a goat but when I began to get serious about lifting, nutrition, etc. I dropped to about 180, increased muscle mass substantially, and my testosterone levels seemed to plummet. Energy, strength, libido, etc. all started going down. Eventually I went in and tested in low. I'm almost certain I didn't have this earlier in my teen years though as I developed normally and was just as horny as any other kid my age. I was getting plenty of dietary fat, so I'm sure that wasn't the reason.

 

[Glaim]

Well, it does make sense I suppose. I never started feeling like this until about 4 or 5 months into my lifting program...when I started getting serious and doing the heavy compound lifts.

 

[Douche_Nutz]

Well, it does make sense I suppose. I never started feeling like this until about 4 or 5 months into my lifting program...when I started getting serious and doing the heavy compound lifts.

Perhaps you're overtraining? Do you lift to failure? How often do you lift? Have you tried taking a week off from all physical activity every 8-10 weeks or so?

 

[Glaim]

Perhaps you're overtraining? Do you lift to failure? How often do you lift? Have you tried taking a week off from all physical activity every 8-10 weeks or so?

Yeah, I tried everything. I don't know if it was coincidence or the training somehow had an impact--I really don't know. I typically lift 4 days a week, 12-15 sets.

 

[SWALE]

In response to that T-NATION article, it is not true that male athletes "typically" suffer hypogonadism. Training "typically" elevates T levels. It is only chronic overtraining that induces the hypogonadal state--and few men train at this level.

 

[stat1951]

I also noted that if you read the article closely that it primarily mentions endurance athletes ("rowers, cyclists, and swimmers") who do a lot of high-rep, super endurance training.

The article also makes reference to the term: "chronically trained athletes"... which is just another way of saying "overtraining".

Another thing not mentioned - one way or the other - but gives food for further thought: Were any of these "chronically trained athletes" also doing anabolic steroids at some past time that may have skewed results of natural T production down yet further???


Larry

In response to that T-NATION article, it is not true that male athletes "typically" suffer hypogonadism. Training "typically" elevates T levels. It is only chronic overtraining that induces the hypogonadal state--and few men train at this level.

 

[Douche_Nutz]

My Bun and Creatinine are always out of range as well. I've always attributed it to a high protein intake. Doctors have never raised an eyebrow about it.

Glaim, do you remember what your levels were at and what the lab ranges were?

TIA

 

[Glaim]

Both were just a tad above the normal ranges. I can't remember the exact numbers

 

[Douche_Nutz]

Here are the results I got from the endo:

Estradiol: 15 pg/mL - Range: 0-54
TSH: 1.87 uU/mL - Range: 0.40-5.50
Prolactin: 8 ng/mL - Range: 4-18
Free T4: 1.12 ng/dl - Range: 0.90-1.70
% Free Testosterone: 2.9% - Range: 2.0-4.9
Free Testosterone: 8.2 ng/dL - Range: 9-30
Total Testosterone: 284.0 ng/dL - Range: 300-1200

What are your thoughts on these results?... I think that my hypogonadism is possibly a result of the anorexia I went through, or vice versa.

I wish he would have tested my other thyroid functions and FSH + LH.

 

[Random987]

Yep. LH and FSH would have determined if you were primary or secondary. In any event your T is TOO LOW. Now the question becomes, how best to treat it. IMO right now you are too young to go on full blown TRT immediately. I would see if your doc will agree to consult with Swale to see if they can tweak you up and get your HPTA back into gear.

Here are the results I got from the endo:

Estradiol: 15 pg/mL - Range: 0-54
TSH: 1.87 uU/mL - Range: 0.40-5.50
Prolactin: 8 ng/mL - Range: 4-18
Free T4: 1.12 ng/dl - Range: 0.90-1.70
% Free Testosterone: 2.9% - Range: 2.0-4.9
Free Testosterone: 8.2 ng/dL - Range: 9-30
Total Testosterone: 284.0 ng/dL - Range: 300-1200

What are your thoughts on these results?... I think that my hypogonadism is possibly a result of the anorexia I went through, or vice versa.

I wish he would have tested my other thyroid functions and FSH + LH.

 

[Douche_Nutz]

Yep. LH and FSH would have determined if you were primary or secondary. In any event your T is TOO LOW. Now the question becomes, how best to treat it. IMO right now you are too young to go on full blown TRT immediately. I would see if your doc will agree to consult with Swale to see if they can tweak you up and get your HPTA back into gear.

Random, thanks for your help throughout all of this. Do you have any idea if Swale would mind if I called him and inquired about getting a consultation with my doctor?

Swale - are you here??? ????

 

[Random987]

Here is his webpage:

http://www.allthingsmale.com/

His contact info:

http://www.allthingsmale.com/contactus.htm

It would probably be best if you would ask your doctor if he or she would be willing to consult, Swale will almost certainly be willing to consult.

Random, thanks for your help throughout all of this. Do you have any idea if Swale would mind if I called him and inquired about getting a consultation with my doctor?

Swale - are you here??? ????

 

[Douche_Nutz]

I received results back from my second set of lab work.

I'm curious about the LH and FSH results. Would these be considered low and point towards secondary hypogonadism?

FSH: 2.7 - Range: 1.4-18

LH: 2.5 - Range: 1.5-9.0

 

[mranak]

^^
LH and FSH aren't steady, so you can't put much into a single draw. Free testosterone (and/or bioavailable testosterone) are what matters.

 

[Random987]

Well, given your prior results:

Free Testosterone: 8.2 ng/dL - Range: 9-30
Total Testosterone: 284.0 ng/dL - Range: 300-1200


I think you would be classified as "secondary". That is, your Hypothalamus and Pituitary are not providing the correct signals for the boys to produce T. The Hypothalamus releases GNrH to the Pituitary which then releases FSH and LH to the testes.

Now whether it is reversible in someone of your age is the big question.

I received results back from my second set of lab work.

I'm curious about the LH and FSH results. Would these be considered low and point towards secondary hypogonadism?

FSH: 2.7 - Range: 1.4-18

LH: 2.5 - Range: 1.5-9.0