Mentzer and HRT

[ciobl]

Mentzers HIT or Arnolds high volume. Big deal, I think both are far from optimal for the majority of people. If you want some real knowledge on training, read some articles by Bryan Haycock or Christian Thibeadeau or the posts on Meso by JohnSmith.

Bob Smith -> They both seem to have experience and credentials on the field.

About this website meso and thinkmuscle I would support them why not but
I am reluctant about magazine writers though, generally speaking, not all of them.

Thibeadeau and even Staley follow same periodization principles than Bompa.
Couple adjustments here and there. Thibeadeau has good educational background but that geek look does not convince me.

Bryan Haycock training methods seem to resemble Mentzer, pretty much the same, with the addition of more body parts and other adjustments as well.
Far from the high volume, that is good, I did not get the chance to read more but it seems close enough:

http://www.hypertrophy-specific.com/imgs/tables_3daysplit.gif

 

[Bob Smith]

There are some similarities, but I dont think HST looks much like Menzters programs, particularly when it comes to frequency of lifting.

Also, our very own JohnSmith is, literally, a world-class strength coach and works with Olympic and pro athletes.

Bob Smith -> They both seem to have experience and credentials on the field.

I dont think being a pro BBer lends much to training credibility. Being a genetic freak (which all pro BBers are) doesnt impress me when they try to dispense their supposed knowledge.

 

[Vforcer2]

I personally believe that Mentzer and his brother Ray died from some new AAS protocol that they were probably experimenting with. Everyone says he was cutting edge............and sometimes being cutting edge means trying something no one else has ever tried.......and it just didn't work out. It is two weird that two seemingly healthy guys died within days of each other with no advanced notice of problems. Just my opinion.

 

[prot]

I personally believe that Mentzer and his brother Ray died from some new AAS protocol that they were probably experimenting with. Everyone says he was cutting edge............and sometimes being cutting edge means trying something no one else has ever tried.......and it just didn't work out. It is two weird that two seemingly healthy guys died within days of each other with no advanced notice of problems. Just my opinion.

I believe Ray was suffering from a debilitating disease and Mike was caring for him until his death from a sudden heart attack. Ray dies 2 days later of his condition, and probaly, a broken heart. These guys were no longer competitive and Ray was certainly not on any AAS protocol due to his health problems. You do people a great disservice putting out this trash.

 

[Vforcer2]

Not putting out trash, just MY theory. I appreciate your generalizations of what happend, but specifics would add some credability. Please do inform and set me straight.....I would be happy to say that my theory was way off.

 

[SWALE]

I love this arguement.

 

[Bob Smith]

I thought Ray (or whoever was the 2nd to die) committed suicide? Who knows, I dont really keep track of BBers at all.

 

[prot]

here it is

Not putting out trash, just MY theory. I appreciate your generalizations of what happend, but specifics would add some credability. Please do inform and set me straight.....I would be happy to say that my theory was way off.

http://www.australianmuscle.com.au/muscle_news/v6_i7july2001.htm

For some reason this article doesnt show even though I found it at this site..It basically says Mike Mentzer had been hospitalized prior to his death for blood clots and they found he had previously suffered two heart attacks. Ray died 2 days later due to his kidney disease, which was complicated by a genetic clotting problem.

 

[ciobl]

I personally believe that Mentzer and his brother Ray died from some new AAS protocol that they were probably experimenting with. Everyone says he was cutting edge............and sometimes being cutting edge means trying something no one else has ever tried.......and it just didn't work out.

Vforcer2 -> you just made that up, didn't you ? I mean, what on earth makes you think that ?

His own father died young with same heart complications.

It is two weird that two seemingly healthy guys died within days of each other with no advanced notice of problems. Just my opinion.

People that followed him throughout his good and bad times, know he always was there for his brother Ray that was going through hell with a dialysis for kidney transplant.

About steroid use, gimme a break, if you were to say something about all these knuckleheads pro bodybuilders I would understand, but about Mentzer ? Don't forget his biggest muscle was his brain.

Back to your post, "it is too weird that two seemingly healthy guys died within days of each other..."

What healthy guys are you talking about?

Not only Ray was dying, but Mike was rehabilitating after amphetamines abuse, allright, hold it right there :

He even quoted: " "Not for the purpose of getting high - that was the furthest thing from my mind. I was taking them as ergogenic aids, to facilitate my hectic lifestyle. I loved being productive."

"I didn't think there was anything wrong in taking stimulants to make me work as hard as I was.A lot of people drink coffee and smoke cigarettes to stay stimulated and be productive"

Who wouldn't after looking at one of his typical logs.

4 AM: woke up and read philosophy for two hours

7 AM: worked out

9 AM: wrote article

2 PM: rode bike for 14 miles

4 PM: napped

6 PM: ran for four miles

8 PM: practiced posing

9 PM: studied philosophy and dealt with mail-order administration

11 PM: retired to bed

lets not forget they robbed him on 1980, everybody knows that. He was in his best moments of his whole career.

On 1985 just after the publication he was editing for was showing signs of profitability, bum !!! financial people step in the plate and decided to call it off, first blow for Mentzer.
Same year, his father died, second blow.
Same year, problems arise after the separation with his longtime fiancee, third blow.

After being hospitalized, only two people, one of them was John Little were there for him.

1990 comes in and far away in England, there was this guy showing potential, his name: Dorian Yates, everybody knows the rest. He gave Mentzer's Heavy Duty principles the validation that for so long was ignored.

Whatever it is said negative about Mr Mentzer its good to remember what he said once:

"I've been through so much that if you tried to embarrass me, you couldn't do it!"

A total gentleman.

 

[Vforcer2]

prot--I clicked on your link and it does go to that magazine but it says "error page not found" or something like that.

ciobl--I am not dogging Mentzer, I know he was well respected(and I own his books), and yes what I said was a figment of my own imagination (I said I was just my musing, right?).

However, you have to admit, for a guy whos brain was his biggest muscle, and whom was reverred for his intellect, abusing amphetamines was a pretty dumb thing to have done, especially considering heart disease was a genetic predisposition. Maybe roids didn't kill him, but based on your information, it would be easy to think that he had already previously damaged (thru amphetamine use) a possibly already diseased heart muscle. Just a thought.

They only thing I don't get is how does a guy with heart problems work out(of course, a "High Intensity" workout), bike for 14 miles, and run 4 miles. Dang if that is a weak heart, I want to see a strong one!

 

[prot]

Many of the bbers of the 70's abused rec drugs. Have heard Draper say he didnt even remember what was happening most times cause he had so many drugs in him. Arnold used coke to cut and most used amphetemines to suppress their appetite whe curtting...No defense, however. Mentzer also drank 25 cups of coffee a day when cutting and on 600 calories. The point is that AAS were the least unhealthy thing these guys were doing and not responsible for their deaths. They both had hereditary blood clotting problems.

 

[ciobl]

He always admitted the damage by using amphetamines. It doesn't matter how smart a person is, still human and make mistakes.

In fact the smarter the person is the bigger mistakes the person makes.

They only thing I don't get is how does a guy with heart problems work out(of course, a "High Intensity" workout), bike for 14 miles, and run 4 miles. Dang if that is a weak heart, I want to see a strong one!

well that's a no brainer, the younger you are the less chances of heart attack survival you get. Or put another way, the older you are the more warning signs you get. The younger you are less chances to get an alert than if you were older.

 

[ciobl]

The point is that AAS were the least unhealthy thing these guys were doing and not responsible for their deaths. They both had hereditary blood clotting problems.

prot -> you got it bro

vforcer2 ->Even if they abused AAS and they didn't, the problem is hereditary. It doesn't matter how good your diet looks like or how many cardiovascular and weight exercises you combine with less or more intensity.
It doesn't matter how hard you try. If the problem lies on the chain of ancestors before you, you are done sooner or later. You can always prevent something from happening earlier and maybe postpone it, but remember this is not for too long and besides, heart problems ??? heart problems you can't postpone when you are relatively young, it doesn't give you a chance to at least go over it and analize it as many elderly fellas have done in a bed of the hospital ER. Heart problems shows no mercy towards younger crowds.

 

[Vforcer2]

Was the problem clotting or heart disease? I would think that clotting would be a blood disorder......? When I read his book a few years ago, the whole death thing peaked my interest so I did an internet search and could find no info at all that discussed any detailed causes of death, that is what caused me to "ponder".

 

[cpeil2]

Was the problem clotting or heart disease? I would think that clotting would be a blood disorder......? .

An abnormal tendency to clot could have caused both M's heart disease and R's kidney disease.