Minimum dose of Deca to notice joint benefits?

[Live_Evil]

So I'm going to be doing my first cycle in a couple of weeks. I planned on doing a 10 week cycle of test enenthate at 250 mg a week, but I'd really like the benefits for my joints that Deca offers so I'm thinking about adding it to my cycle. The thing is, I'd prefer a test only cycle for a first cycle, so I'm wondering if I can do something like 50-100 mg a week of deca in order to help my joints and offset any negative effects the test could have on my joints, but still utilize the benefits of a test only cycle for the first cycle since the dosage for the deca will be so small.

I'm concerned with my joints because I've always done action sports and I've really messed my knees up over the years. Between motocross, bmx, and downhill mountain biking I've had numerous surgeries and more broken bones than I can remember, the injuries have certainly effected my knees far more severely than anything else on my body though. Squats have always been difficult for me and doing something like test that is actually bad for your joints makes me VERY nervous.

Thoughts anyone?

Here are my stats: 27 years old, lifting off and on for 9 years now (committed for about a year now), 185 lbs., 5'11", and between 10-12% body fat. I've been studying the science behind AAS for about 6 years now and feel I'm finally in a place where they would benefit me greatly.

Oh and I plan on doing a detailed log during my cycle with pictures every week.

 

[Sworder]

Run EQ instead @ 250mg/week. It does have as many sides as deca. I would run test @ 500mg/week but that's just personal preference. Some guys like low dose test.. Eat a lot of clean foods and you will grow a lot!

 

[Reinheart]

Run EQ instead @ 250mg/week. It does have as many sides as deca. I would run test @ 500mg/week but that's just personal preference. Some guys like low dose test.. Eat a lot of clean foods and you will grow a lot!

That's some good advice. Personally I would run a higher EQ dosage along with anavar and use testosterone only as the base of the cycle at a low dosage.

 

[Live_Evil]

Thanks for advice guys.

So running the EQ with the Anavar wouldn't be bad for a first cycle? I always thought it was preferable to run only Test on a first cycle? Honestly I would love to run EQ and Anavar, but that would be pretty pricey as well.

What would be the minimum dosage I could get away with for 10 weeks while still getting good results?

 

[mac111]

500mg pw test will do the joints a world of good on its own, no need for the deca. it will only be temporary mind, no aas repair joints

 

[Live_Evil]

500mg pw test will do the joints a world of good on its own, no need for the deca. it will only be temporary mind, no aas repair joints

Really? I was under the impression that Test was hard on the joints. Is it only large doses and/or long cycles that are hard on the joints? So if I up the dosage to 500 mg weekly then I should be good to go? You wouldn't happen to have a source (for that information) that I could check out would you? Thanks bro.

 

[Dr JIM]

Really guys Mac is absolutely correct. Ask yourself this question which of the following has unequivocally been proven to "heal joints"; TIME, AAS, REHAB, HGH, NSAIDS?
I really don't know why there's so much confusion about this issue because the anatomic structures which encompass a "joint", (unlike skeletal muscle) are either avascular (articular cartilage) or have a limited blood supply (ligaments excluding ACL and PCL, tendons, synovial membrane) and nothing HEALS without adequate perfusion! Incidentally, if testosterone is "bad for your joints" why is it the predominant endogenous anabolic hormone in the human body and why don't we all have "bad joints" by age 40?
That being said, it seems intuitive that since the influence of AAS on protein synthesis is relatively nonspecific the effects would become manifest in not only skeletal muscle but also other amino acid-polypeptide based anatomic precursors such as collagen (the most abundant protein in humans), with blood flow being a MAJOR contributor. Therefore, it should be no surprise that those medical conditions which demonstrate clinical improvement when anabolics are utilized include those with brisk perfusion such as skeletal muscle (wasting conditions, sarcopenia) and the dermis (burn and trauma victims) yet DO NOT include joints! (Bodybuilding is not a medical "condition", LOL.)
However, I have observed a more than coincidental correlation between certain anabolics and symptomatic relief of articular pain. I have also noticed those roids which presumably distend the intersitium such as; (Deca, Test, Bolo, D-bol etc) could also effect the joint capsule in a related manner, which may account for their salutary influence. I also agree with Bill Roberts (because he is smarter than me) that synovial fluid production may be enhanced with some roids, yet speculate that the mechanism could be the consequence of extrinsic joint capsule compression, causing minor weeping from surrounding tissues. Incidentally for those whom still believe AAS can "HEAL JOINTS" ask yourself, why do symptoms recur once they are discontinued?

Regards
JIM

 

[leoclaw79]

could it simply be a matter of aromatization of those steroids? dbol and test both aromatize to estrogen while nandrolone converts to estrogen by some other mechanism.... my guess (though it is almost pure speculation) is that increases in estrogen would cause water retention that would temporarily help joints while on cycle. my reason for that guess is that a symptom of low estro is joint pain. someone who knows more of the matter please correct me if i am mistaken

 

[Sworder]

Incidentally for those whom still believe AAS can "HEAL JOINTS" ask yourself, why do symptoms recur once they are discontinued?

Regards
JIM

The original poster didn't ask or say that he was looking for a compound which would heal his joints. Off-set any negative effect the strains of a Test cycle would put on his joints. Also, it is in supraphysiological levels in which the "anecdotal proposition" would exhibit negative effects. Scally is pretty good at finding studies maybe he has something which correlates collagen synthesis and AAS. Deca/EQ has worked for me to relieve tendon issues, how it works and if it can be proven isn't really important to me and I would definitely recommend EQ/Deca to anybody who has joint issues who is going on a cycle. I am not stating that it is for the purpose of healing any injury, just for mechanical stress relief.
On the flip side Jim I am curious to if you ever recommend acupuncture or what your view on acupuncture is? It has never been proven to work(to my knowledge) but still MDs recommend it. I won't judge you as hypocritical if you do recommend acupuncture just curious on your stance upon something which isn't scientifically proven but anecdotally it has been shown to work.

 

[Dr JIM]

There are several INVITRO studies that correlate AAS with collagen synthesis, yet the million dollar question is where that collagen becomes a functional anatomic structure? Joint components have neither good perfusion or rapid cellular turnover which makes them an unlikely final destination for collagen synthesized during a brief twelve week or less AAS cycle, IMO. As I've already noted, certain AAS do improve joint symptoms yet I suspect this is secondary to interstitial joint swelling rather than the direct result of enhanced collagen synthesis, for the same reasons mentioned earlier. I haven't recommended acupuncture, supplemental vitamin C, chondroitin or glucosamine because the literature does not support there use as a means of improving joint health or reparation. Lastly there is no INVIVO literature which even remotely suggests testosterone is "bad for your joints"!
Regards
Jim

 

[Sworder]

Normal testosterone levels aren't bad for your joints, I think the suggestion was aimed @ 500mg++ testosterone/week. Me personally find joint support to be crucial during a cycle. And this is irrelevant to if high test is bad for your joints or not. But something tells me that throwing around 140lb dumbbells might put some stress on either joints and tendons. Also, I would think that these two would tear/break before muscle tissue/bones. Going back to square one, nothing supports that deca/eq increases collagen synthesis. If you have joint/tendon issues it can't hurt using deca/eq for their anabolic properties and hopefully receiving benefit for your joints. Am gonna stop beating a dead horse, so in conclusion deca/eq may benefit your joints/tendons during a cycle but there are no studies to support it.

 

[Live_Evil]

Thanks for the responses and the info guys.

 

[Dr JIM]

Sworder I concur, since the musculo-tendonious and or ligamentous stress associated with "heavy lifting" or remarkable alterations in acceleration-deceleration pattern of lifting mandates a healthy joint from the outset for optimal strength and injury prevention.
Incidentally there are several studies which support the contention that AAS can enhance collagen synthesis, however many were conducted, INVITRO, using "cellular tubes". The tubes may contain differing cell lines, fibroblasts in this instance, and are nourished using a variety of "bathing solutions", depending upon their physiologic requirements for optimal growth. An anabolic agent may then be instilled analyzing the reproductive rate as a consequence.
These bathing solutions are deemed analogous to physiologic blood flow with the "cellular tubes" being mentioned as a reasonable substitute for fibroblasts, in several AAS forums!
In addition, those "forum speak" threads which promote the "joint healing properties" of anabolics often cite BURN and or TRAUMA victim literature to substantiate their claims of "joint healing", both of which have excellent perfusion and a relatively high cellular reproductive rate, (the antithesis of human joints), IMO! None of these assertions even remotely approximate the multifactorial physiologic requirements of an INVIVO study. For example, such research could include the infusion of essential amino acids for collagen synthesis, such as proline or glycine, which are "tagged" with a stable isotope. The tagged amino acids could then be "traced" to determine their incorporation into functional joint structures such as; synovial membrane, joint capsule, tendons or ligaments with a reasonable degree of certainty. However, the he latter may prove more challenging and tedious since the protein, collagen) is so abundant in the human body, being essential in tissues such as; blood vessels, all joint structures, the entire GI and GU tract, "internal and external" dermis, skeletal muscle etc, etc, etc.

Best regards,
JIMMY