Need help- 19 going on middle age

[masterpp]

hey guys, for the last year i have been struggling to cope with the effects of primary hypergonadism, and all the unpleasant symptons which go with it. I previously went on TRt androgel but it made my own production turn off, and after just a month my lh and fsh went from double the normal value to being 0. in a word i need a way to improve my lean body mass and mood without going on TRT alone. I have thought about reducing my estrogen, through DIM, but i am worried about issues concerning DHT. I also considered going on HCG and TRT, but i dont think my endo prescribes it and in any event im worried about having to take injections and being found out by my familly (i dont want to upset them).

In a word for someone like me whose balls dont make enough T, are there any other options. I work out and eat well, so with a shirt on i look great. i way 145 pounds, but i have a fatty stomach and skinny arms. Apparently I'm not klinefelters or abnormally genetic, but i have similar symptoms. I need to get lain and improve my mood, but last time i went on T i went to the sperm bank and i had no sperm because my pituatitary secretions stopped.

I was also wondering if anyone knew if one uses different levels of HCG for different amounts of T being taken, ie if one does double the T does one double the HCG.

I recently had a varicocele removed (scrotal vain) to see if that will improve my testicular health as i had a massive one which could have caused the atrophy.bassically i would just like some advise from you guys about what options i have. i had a bad experience previously with androgel daily, but would consider the three monthly injections if i combined it with HCG.

any comments welcome

 

[mranak]

Yes, TRT will cause your LH and FSH to fall, usually to <1 (but >0). This is to be expected. Was that your only chief concern with the Androgel?

Why are you so worried about DHT? Dihydrotestosterone is a good thing. Do you believe that you are genetically prone to MPB (male pattern baldness)?

Androgel is usually a very good treatment option, but if the shots are a better option that the Androgel, then I really believe that you need to consider them. They aren't that big of a deal. You need to concern yourself with your own health first and then worry about the family situation. I realize that there is a stigma attached to syringes, but your parents obviously had a very intelligent son so I'm certain they are capable of understanding and accepting the situation likewise.

As far as your body is concerned, hCG is LH. With appropriate TRT, that includes both the exogenous testosterone and hCG, your fertility should be maintained. SWALE disagrees that the hCG is necessary, and he is the physician with waaaay more experience than me, but I'm still skeptical that spermogenesis is always maintained without the hCG to stimulate intratesticular testosterone, which is necessary for spermogenesis.

Unfortunately, most endocrinologists are, well, incompetent in doing appropriate TRT. If your endocrinologist isn't willing to prescribe hCG in addition to the exogenous testosterone (be it Androgel or other), then you may need to focus your efforts on finding a different physician. Perhaps one of the guys here has already found a resonable physician in your area.

Don't get too upset over any of this. Many of us here are young guys. Just be thankful that you weren't born ten years earlier because we know a lot more about this stuff than we did ten years ago.

 

[Weatherlite]

Sorry to hear about your woes. However, there is hope so don't get down!

You have already addressed your lifestyle it seems so I don't think that would have anything to do with your low T. Therefore you sound like a good TRT candidate. Nothing wrong with it. And yes, as mranak said, there is a stigma associated with needles but if need be you could hide it for a while and gently broach the subject. Sometimes folks are afraid because it's "steroids" but they are also the ones who believe everything the news tells ya about em. You could even try the approach that your mom (if she ever took birth control pills) did the same thing for convenience (take hormones) so why should you not take them for medical reasons? It's worth a shot.

Ok, back to the rest of your post. DHT is, as SWALE puts it, responsible for all things male. Without it you can have all the T you want and still not have many masculine attributes. If you are worried about hair loss then there may be other options (wouldn't recommend finasteride as this is detrimental to T production as well anyway....which could still affect you when on TRT.

Sterility. I just posted this in another thread but I'll say it here too. TRT and fertility came up in a thread a while back and SWALE had a nice post which summed it up real well. He simply posted something like "What do you call a man who uses TRT for birth control? Daddy!" Yes, TRT CAN cause a reduction in sperm. After a while it has been shown to come back up. With HcG it comes back with a vengence. (HcG is used for fertility) HcG, while it is an analogue of LH, will also stimulate production of sperm through some strange unknown to me process. So, it does two things for you. 1) it restores some sperm production and in doing so restores your normal testicle size and 2) adds in some extra T. When it is used appropriately it can alleviate any drops in T levels during TRT.

BTW, if you go with the injections it's not 3x a month it's 1x/week if done with the more recent theories. Some used to do 400mg 1x/month but that caused HUGE swings in hormone levels. So some docs, to include SWALE choose 100mg 1x/week and this drastically improves it.

As for the HcG dose vs T dose...the HcG is left the same regardless of T dose. Your HcG dose may differ according to your needs though.

Out of curiosity...what was your prob with the gel?

Finally, would you happen to have some lab numbers we could look at? I wouldn't recommend messing with your E2 levels yet as it is possible to bring them too low. Without knowing your normal E2 levels I'd be hesitant to recommend anything.

 

[masterpp]

Hey guyws thanks for all the help. I am willing to go on HCG if you are sure that it will retain fertilitiy. the reason i went off the TRT is because of diminished sperm. im only 19 so i dont want atrophic testicles for the rest of my life. is there any other way to take HCG apart from needles. Also my concern with DHT is that i dont know what my level is, and im only 19 so i was worried about messing with it. im not concerned with male pattern baldness. Im just looking for a way to improve my mood and body. I also just had a varicocele remvoed, and want to see if that improves things. i was hesitant to go back on TRT as that might undermine testicular regrowth. but if ur sure HCG can sustain normal testicular function, then its chocs away for TRT.

In any event here are my lab results.
The first number were prior to trt, and the second number was taken four months into TRT. the number in brackets are the suggested boundary.

thanks guys if youd have a look and pass comment i would be greatful.
The problem is though how to get HCG. my gp already prescribes me androgel, do you think it will be enough for him to just call up the endochronolgist i was seeing and ask him to let me use HCG, rather than me having to trapes across the country to see him. thanks

TSH : 1.66 >> 0.98 (0.3-5.5)
testos ; 11.9 >> 52.1 (8.4-28)
Prolactin : 201 >> 134 (45-375)
LH : 25.5 >> 0.1 (1.5-9.3)
FSh : 68.9 >> 1.1 (2-20)
Oestradiol:106 >> 73 (0-191)

 

[Weatherlite]

It's your decision, and of course you'll need the help of your doc, but HcG will most certainly help you remain fertile...that's it's intended purpose. When you read the package insert that is the first thing it mentions and then later on it covers (in poor detail if you ask me) how it can be used for hypogonadism. Also, the HcG will restore normal testicle size. Just make sure that the doc prescribes it the way SWALE (and many other TRT experts) recommends...that is 250IU 2x/week on the two days prior to injection. Or, if you are on gel, I think it's 250IU 2x/week every 3.5 days. If I'm wrong on the gel someone please correct!

You don't want to go above 500IU as that will cause increases in E2 and that's bad.

As for how to take it, you can only inject it. However, you have an option. It's designated for intramuscular injection but it can be taken just as effectively subcutaneously. If you don't know that means you can inject it into the fat below the skin. To do this you can use a tiny needle that does not hurt. Seriously. The most I've ever felt (and this is rare) is the sensation of a mosquito bite. For this you use 31 gauge insulin syringes. Quick, easy and almost always painless!

Ok, on to your labs.

TSH : 1.66 >> 0.98 (0.3-5.5)
testos ; 11.9 >> 52.1 (8.4-28)
Prolactin : 201 >> 134 (45-375)
LH : 25.5 >> 0.1 (1.5-9.3)
FSh : 68.9 >> 1.1 (2-20)
Oestradiol:106 >> 73 (0-191)

First off, by looking at your LH and FSH, you have primary hypogonadism, just in case you didn't know. Also though, your doc needs to do some other tests...mainly a Free T (or preferrably Bioavailable T) and an E2 (Estradiol) sensitive assay. The E2 test you got was not a sensitive test and is only good for use in women.

Also, even though your T levels were within the "range" due to the fact that your LH was sky-high you would be diagnosed with subclinical hypogonadism. (if I recall that's what it's called) The "on TRT" number is way too high though! (unless your range is a typo) Typically T should be kept in the upper 25% of the range for optimum effects, otherwise some health concerns can become problems. Also, you will feel great for a few weeks, maybe even months, and then you'll start to feel like crap because the body just doesn't like it.

Keep us posted!

EDIT: just saw that you took androgel before. If you applied it to your arms and then got your labs dones that could account for the high T levels. Sometimes folks have some of the gel on their arms when they go to the lab and the needle "sucks up" some of that gel into the blood sample thereby skewing the results. Just figured I'd bring it up.

 

[masterpp]

thanks for the support guys

thanks alot guys. as i sadi i hada variccocele procedure and i want to see if that will improve my testicular health, so im kinda of nervouse about doing anything which may undermine the improvements which could happen. any idea how long it may take (if at all) to see some change and catch up growth dow there. ta

 

[nsashbl]

Masterp, find a doc that has more experience in TRT.

HCG is a godsend and you should try it. The shots are a joke and don't hurt at all. No different than a diabetic's shots, which they take several times a day. It will be worth it. Give it a shot....