New member with troubles looking for opinions (long)

[Viper1]

Phil referred me over to this board in the hopes that Swale or someone might have some ideas that I have not tried yet in order to fix a very bad problem I've had for two and a half years. Please forgive me it's a little long but interesting.

A little background info about me. I'm 39 years old and I'm 6' 1" and I weigh 155 pounds. I don't drink or smoke or do drugs, never have. I go to the gym and workout about 3 nights a week. Back in July 2002 I got very sick with some sort of mystery illness. I got the chills, followed by the sweats. I had terrible bone rattling bouts of shaking. All my joints ached. I couldn't eat anything for a couple of days other than just a few crackers or something like that. I was out of town at the time so I couldn't get to my doctor. When it broke I knew I felt completely different. I had always had a very high sex drive. I could have sex anywhere, anytime, for as long as I wanted to. I was always thinking about women or sexual material. But when I got over this, I absolutely did not want sex anymore. About two weeks later back at home, the girl I was dating at the time finally pinned me down and wanted to have sex. I had been avoiding her for awhile because I knew what was going to happen. Well it happened, I was not turned on at all unlike before. As hard as we tried I just coudln't get an erection. My mind wasn't into it. But I did climax from a totally flaccid state.

About 4 weeks later I started feeling like my old self again. I started getting those sexual thoughts again and started feeling horny just like before I was sick. Everything returned to normal. We started having spontaneous sex again. I was having very strong morning wood again. Everything went just fine up until November 25, 2002 when it happened again just like before. Chills, shaking, sweating, no appetite, the whole nine yards. This happened over Thanksgiving so I couldn't get to the doctor again until after it was over in 3 days. When I got in to see the doc, he had no idea what could have happened. Again my sex drive was wiped out. No more morning wood, no sexual dreams, quit wanting to masturbate. It's been that way all the way up until now.

Now I did take Propecia for 10 years from 1993-2003. I have heard that this can ruin your sex drive but there is no way to pinpoint it as a reason. I also think it is the reason I have such terrible brain fog because I didn't used to be like that. I can't concentrate on anything for more than a fraction of a second. If I can't concentrate on getting turned on by whom I'm with, then it's not going to work. Since 2002 I've tried all of the ED drugs in various combinations. I started with 25mg Viagra which worked ok at first. I would get an erection without getting turned on. It was like having emotionless sex. When the Viagra would fail I moved on to Levitra 20mg. Then it would work for awhile then start to fail. Then Cialis came out so naturally I gave it a shot. Same thing, worked for a couple of months then failed. It was like my body was adapting to the ED drugs and becoming immune to them. So I figured if I was having trouble with just one, why not double the dosage. So I did, I would take 2 25mg Viagra. DIdn't really get any kind of boost with that so I figured if one drug won't work, lets try two together. Finally I arrived at a mixture that would produce somewhat good results semi-dependable. I would take 2 20mg Cialis, then about 30 minutes later I would take 2 20mg Levitra, then about 20 minutes later I would take a 100mg Viagra. 90% of the time that worked. Only towards the end of 2004 did I start to have a little trouble with it. I would do ok when I was kissing the girl or during oral sex but upon penetration I could start to feel my erection fading away so I would try and hurry to climax before I lost it totally.

I started looking for answers from about early 2003 up until now. I've been to my regular doctor, an endocrinologist, and 4 urologists. They have all said there is nothing wrong with me. I've done several blood tests which all show me to be "normal". But I can't get the doctors to understand that not everybody functions good just because your in the middle of the ranges. I've tried every supplement known to man that claims to be a libido booster. I started going to the gym and working out. For about a year I was taking Yohimbe Fuel, DLPA, Lecithin, and Zinc. In early January Phil told me to try taking a 20mg Cialis every 72 hours. I did that and after a couple of weeks I felt much better. Started having morning wood again for the first time in over two years. Had spontaneous erections again. Went back to having a somewhat normal sex life again. I had just enough of a libido in order for the Cialis to work good. I still would take the Viagra just as a crutch to lean on. Things went well the rest of January, through Febraury, and the first couple of days into March.

One day in early March I felt the change happen again. Everytime I have started to feel bad again, it happens very suddenly. It is a feeling like when you are feeling very good then someone tells you some very bad news. You get that sinking feeling, that is what happens to me. I got that sinking feeling early in March and have never recovered from it. My morning wood dissapeared. I totally lost interest in sex again. I haven't had an erection in over a month. I went and had a blood test drawn on March 11. I thought that this could show something because I started feeling bad so fast. Well It didn't. I'll post it and the one I had taken in Nov. 2004 after this post. I started a new supplement program. I take 5 tablets of Pump Tech Nitric Oxide boosters twice a day. I take 4 Tribex capsules twice a day, I take 1 Ginseng capsule 3 times a day. I take about 3 grams of Mucuna Pruriens twice a day. I take about 4 grams of Maca Root once a day. I take about 5 grams of L-Arginine right before bedtime. I take 3 grams of Tongkat Ali once a day. I'm going to cycle this time. 3 weeks on and 1 week off. My first cycle ends on April 26. A couple of them will have been taken for about 4 weeks or so. I'm going to give this program about three cycles or so then if it has not done anything, I'm going to abandon it and quit everything. I also stopped taking the Cialis every 72 hours about 2 weeks ago. I'm going to restart it in a coupe of weeks to see if it might jump start me again like it did before. If it doesn't then I have no choice to return to those very high dosages of ED drugs. At least they worked half way good.

 

[Viper1]

Blood tests

Here is a blood test that I had in November 2004. As you can see it showed both my Total T level and Free T levels to be higher than normal. This test was done by my urologist.

Teststosterone Free percentage 3.0 (2.0-4.8%)
Teststosterone Free rating (I guess) 34.7 (9-30 ng/dL)
Total Teststosterone number 1157 (300-950 ng/dL)

Estradiol 31.67 (7.63-42.59 PG/ML)

FSH 2.3 (1.5-12.4 MIU/ML)

LH 6.2 (1.7-8.6 MIU/ML)

Prolactin 11.0 (4.1-18.4 NG/ML)

Thyroid Profile
T3 Uptake 33.55 (23.0-40.0%)
T4 8.2 (4.0-12.0 ug/dL)
T7 2.8 (1.3-3.7 ug/dL)

The Liver panel is too large to list here.

This test was done on March 11, 2005 by my regular doctor.
Blood Test 3-11-05 39 year old male

Thyroid Profile
T3 Uptake 30.5 % Range 28.0-41.0
T4 Total 9.07 ug/dL Range 5.1-14.1
F.T.I. 2.8 Range 1.1-4.4
TSH 2.320ulU/ml Range 0.40-4.20

Prolactin 8.85ng/mL Range 1.61-18.77
FSH 3.24mlU/mL Range 1.0-8.0

IGF1 247ng/ml Range 114-492

DHEA S 117mcg/dl Range 59-452

DHT 73ng/dl Range 25-75

Testosterone Total 606ng/dl Range 236-1076
Free Testosterone Percentage 1.26% Range 1.0-3.1
Free Testosterone 76.6pg/ml Range 31.0-160.0

Apparently the lab either did not run E2 Estradiol or the lab tech forgot to ask for it. I have not heard back from Dr.'s office yet. If they did not then I will have to go back to get that run by itself.

 

[SWALE]

I feel like I do want to comment on the length, and detail, of your post. I know guys need help, and want to be as complete as possible, but when I open a thread such as this, I just feel like I do not want to get into it. It takes me 15 minutes just to read and comprehend it fully and is not appropriate for a Forum such as this. Basically, what you are asking me to do is a full Consultation. I am usually in the midst of a 16 hour workday, and posts such as this present more of a load than is practical.

I am trying not to be unkind, or disrespectful in any way, but I have been thinking about this very subject for some time now. This Forum is more for presenting a given point, asking a "what's this" question, and/or debating current topics in the field--not providing full complete analysis Consultations.

I dearly hope I have not offended anyone. That is not my purpose. But I do respectfully ask that our questions not become pages long. I think we'll do better if we can boil things down to basic information and a few questions.

 

[buck]

I dearly hope I have not offended anyone. That is not my purpose. But I do respectfully ask that our questions not become pages long. I think we'll do better if we can boil things down to basic information and a few questions.[/QUOTE]

Quite understandable.

 

[Viper1]

I didn't mean to bother you or take up too much of your time. I just felt that if I made a simple post such as "Lost my sex drive two years ago" or something like that it might be too vague.

 

[mranak]

Summary for SWALE: He is experiencing sexual problems (ED, lack of drive, lack of morning wood) but his labs seem to indicate that his testosterone levels are adequate. He took Propecia for '93-'03.

Viper1: I understand why you posted a long message. You want to explain the entire situation and I would have done the same thing. SWALE is simply telling all of us his situation and setting expectations.

My reply to Viper1:

I think that certain supplements you are taking _may_ very well be increasing your testosterone levels, but you are not getting the benefits of _real_ TRT from them. This isn't at all unheard of. There are drugs known as SERMs (Nolvadex, Clomid) that do the same thing.

Perhaps the supplements are effectively preventing you from getting the TRT treatment that you need, since physicians are more than hesitant to prescribe TRT to somebody that doesn't have low testosterone.

 

[Viper1]

Thanks for summarizing for me. You're right about dr's not wanting to go any further with someone that has "normal numbers". The other thing I get is that it's "all in my mind" or "you're just depressed". The only thing I'm depressed about is that I can't get turned on anymore to have sex or get a simple erection.

I don't even know if I need TRT or not. Like I said, I'm going to give this current supplement program another 2 or 3 months then decide what to do. Right now I feel worse than I have since this whole thing started.

 

[earthdog]

Viper1,

I wish I could add something useful, but I really can't; it sounds like a virus or some other infection has affected your body in a bad way, and it's way beyond me. Dr. Crisler (Swale) is available for consultation, where he consults with and advises your own doctor. You can get more information and reach him through his web site, www.allthingsmale.com.

 

[Sonny]

Viper,

Sorry to hear about your troubles. Your problems seem to have started out as episodes that would knock you on your back, you'd be ok, and then on your way again. It sounds like it has become more of a chronic thing recently. It sounds like the initial problems were undeniably physical but knowing that something like that is "lurking" in the background can certainly put a damper on one's mental state.

I'm with earthdog in that it sounds like this is something viral in nature. However, that is just a guess. My sister was treated for years with ulcer medication when a very sharp nurse tested her for some kind of blood infection. The nurse was right.

Perhaps you can work with Swale through your local physician. This doesn't sound like a black and white case, so working with Swale would allow you to get the attention that you need.

Good luck and keep us posted.

Sonny

 

[Viper1]

Viper1,

I wish I could add something useful, but I really can't; it sounds like a virus or some other infection has affected your body in a bad way, and it's way beyond me. Dr. Crisler (Swale) is available for consultation, where he consults with and advises your own doctor. You can get more information and reach him through his web site, www.allthingsmale.com.

Yeah I've heard about that. It's just getting a local doctor to go along with the idea of consulting with someone else. My urologist refuses to go any further and so does the endocrinologist that I saw. In order for my regular doctor to do it, I would probably have to insist on it.

 

[prot]

It does sound viral but they are hard to identify and so often untreated. Epstein Barre, etc are associated with Chronic fatigue, etc but no one can put a handle on many of them. Lymes disease has specific symptomology but gone unnoticed has caused much harsher symptoms than you describe. If you want to check the efficacy of adding test you can simply do it yourself by using 250 mg per week for a month and noticing if it affects your libido.

 

[Matt Muscle]

I can understand how you must feel. But the thing that stands out to me here is that you took finasteride for 10 years. The bad effects of this drug seem to occur at different times for people. Some never get problems some get them almost within months of taking the drug. Off course the mystery illness you have had looks like the culprit because your problems have started at the time of its occurance. However IMHO, the persistant problems your are having with ED, libido, mental clarity etc seem like the ill effects of finasteride use. Perhaps the illness you had, set of some sort of reaction whereby the body no longer tolerated or coped with the use of this medication,... OR maybe the illness itself was the result of the drug.
I would suggest joining this group at yahoo to familarise yourself with all the symptoms other guys are experiencing.
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/finasteride_side_effects/
You will get alot of support there and im sure if you read through previous posts you will discover alot of pertinent information
Your natural testosterone levels are quite ok.. taking more testosterone will not fix yor libido and ED problems,.. It will just create more.
The very high first testosterone reading you listed seems familar to what I have read on other posts on the Yahoo forum.

Cheers.

 

[Viper1]

I've been on the finasteride Yahoo group for several months now. You're right some guys experience trouble after only a couple of months and some it takes several years. I have felt that it was something viral or something that shocked my system so bad that it upset the chemical balance in my body. Plus the fact that when I got sick the first time, I got completely healthy again after about 4 weeks. But the second time knocked me completely out and I've never recovered.

 

[Viper1]

I went to the doctor Friday and we went over my last blood test. He said all of my numbers looked normal. I pointed out to him that my Total T and Free T numbers were basically half of what they were in November. He suggested that we try Andogel for a month or so.

A few other people have suggested that the Mayo Clinic in Jacksonville, FL is good for finding deeply hidden problems. My doctor agreed to refer me down there. I just have to find a doctor on their list that I want to see. While I'm down there about the sexual problems I would also like to see a psychologist. Anybody ever had any dealings with the Mayo Clinic?

 

[Matt Muscle]

I went to the doctor Friday and we went over my last blood test. He said all of my numbers looked normal. I pointed out to him that my Total T and Free T numbers were basically half of what they were in November. He suggested that we try Andogel for a month or so.

Your T levels were ABOVE normal in the first test... and in the second test they are quite normal. Is this the only tests you have had? Have you considered more testing for Bioavailble T and SHBG and DHT etc.
From what i can remember, talking to the guys on the FIN group.. high levels of T and then a drop back to normal range is quite common after discontinuing Finasteride.... as the body is now trying to correct the hormone disturbance caused by this nasty drug.
I dont see how taking T is going to help you.

 

[Viper1]

Your T levels were ABOVE normal in the first test... and in the second test they are quite normal. Is this the only tests you have had? Have you considered more testing for Bioavailble T and SHBG and DHT etc.
From what i can remember, talking to the guys on the FIN group.. high levels of T and then a drop back to normal range is quite common after discontinuing Finasteride.... as the body is now trying to correct the hormone disturbance caused by this nasty drug.
I dont see how taking T is going to help you.

These were the only two tests where I got the copies of. The other ones I had run in 2003 varied from around 400 to the highest one was 686. These are the numbers that were told to me.

I got DHT tested for the first time on this last one and it was a couple of points away from the top of the range. The Bioavailable T and SHBG have not been tested. I am running into strong opposition from my doctor and my urologist on getting certain things tested.

I noticed when my tests came back this last time that they did not run the E2 test. I had to go back this past Friday for a problem I was having with my ear and asked the Dr about why my E2 was not tested. He said it was not on my list. I know I put it on there. I asked for it to be tested and he said ok. When I got into the lab tech, she said that the Dr had removed a few things from my list. Betcha he removed it along with the SHBG.

Swale had posted in another thread about adding T to some that were in mid range producing some good results. I don't see where it will hurt to try it for a while to see what happens.