MESO-Rx
Anabolic Steroids
nolvodex or cloid post cycle?
- Thread starter toc67guru
- Start date
einstein1905
New Member
Even though I don't have the references in front of me either, regarding tissue specificity, that doesn't negate the majority of the literature showing the clomid is far superior for increasing LH in a reasonable time frame. The only studies that favor nolva are marathon sessions that have no practical significance to us. In the post I posted in an earlier thread, there was a study that showed clearly that clomid has a much higher affinity for the ERs in the suprapituitary versus nolva.Patuba said:
Novladex being breast tissue specific
Sure... the reason no one finds it, is the data is hidden away in cancer research studies.
I'd copy the whole thing here, but it's in PDF form, so it can't be cut-n-pasted. Here's the URL:
http://www.pnas.org/cgi/reprint/94/25/14105.pdf
This is a 1997 study on Molecular determinants of tissue selectivity in estrogen receptor modulators.
That key phrase is in the first paragraph (in bold text, first part of the paper):
"The estrogen receptor ligands raloxifine and tamoxifen (Novladex) have demonstrated such tissue-specific estrogen agonist/antagonist effects. Both agents antagonize the effects of estrogen on mammary tissue, whilel mimicking the actions of estrogen on the bone."
There you go buddy, I know what it's like to try to research stuff on the web... so much confusion and partial information.
This stuff is good cause it's from A bunch of researchers at Endocrine research from Lily's lab. It's in a paper for the National academy of Science. If they don't know what they are talking about, no one does.
Sure... the reason no one finds it, is the data is hidden away in cancer research studies.
I'd copy the whole thing here, but it's in PDF form, so it can't be cut-n-pasted. Here's the URL:
http://www.pnas.org/cgi/reprint/94/25/14105.pdf
This is a 1997 study on Molecular determinants of tissue selectivity in estrogen receptor modulators.
That key phrase is in the first paragraph (in bold text, first part of the paper):
"The estrogen receptor ligands raloxifine and tamoxifen (Novladex) have demonstrated such tissue-specific estrogen agonist/antagonist effects. Both agents antagonize the effects of estrogen on mammary tissue, whilel mimicking the actions of estrogen on the bone."
There you go buddy, I know what it's like to try to research stuff on the web... so much confusion and partial information.
This stuff is good cause it's from A bunch of researchers at Endocrine research from Lily's lab. It's in a paper for the National academy of Science. If they don't know what they are talking about, no one does.
Last edited:
einstein1905
New Member
Very good find. Help me out now, and sniff out the study that suggests clomiphene's specificity for the suprapituitary/hypothalamus nowNeodavid said:
The ER affinity of the two for ERs in the suprapituitary is evidence enough, but there is a study that makes it even more explicit.Specificity, I can't find, looks like there's a guy in Steroidology.com forum that has interesting stuff though...
This is all from hhajdo:
They noticed a significant difference between Clomid and Nolvadex in their effect on LH response to GHRH...
That may or may not be important since we know that LH/test increase induced by Clomid can be sustained for a long time.
Similar effect of Clomid on pituitary response to LHRH was noticed in some other studies also:
Pituitary responsiveness to LHRH and TRH in men: effect of bromocriptine and clomiphene treatment.
Ronnberg L, Ylikorkala O.
The effect of the concomitant use of bromocriptine and clomiphene on pituitary function was tested in 8 healthy men, who ingested either 100 mg of clomiphene, 5 mg of bromocriptine or 100 mg of clomiphene +5 mg of bromocriptine daily for 7 days. Plasma concentrations of FSH and LH increased similarly during clomiphene and clomiphene + bromocriptine intake. Bromocriptine decreased the plasma levels of prolactin (Prl) and this decrease was unaffected by clomiphene.The latter blunted the plasma LH response to LHRH whilst bromocriptine blunted the Prl response to TRH, but Clomiphene and bromocriptine together had no additive effects on gonadotrophin and Prl secretion. It thus seems likely that this combination offers no advantage over clomiphene alone in the treatment of normoprolactinaemic infertile men
Pituitary response to exogenous LHRH in superovulated women.
Messinis IE, Templeton AA.
Department of Obstetrics and Gynaecology, University of Aberdeen, Foresterhill, UK.
The response of the pituitary to exogenous LHRH was investigated in 9 normally ovulating women during the late follicular phase of a spontaneous (control) cycle, a cycle during treatment with clomiphene and a cycle during treatment with 'pure' FSH. During clomiphene treatment, basal FSH concentrations increased significantly up to Day 6 of the cycle and then decreased progressively while basal LH values showed a continuous rise. During treatment with FSH, basal LH concentrations decreased significantly. The response of both FSH and LH to LHRH showed a significant and quantitatively similar decrease during clomiphene or FSH administration as compared to the spontaneous cycles. It is suggested that basal secretion of FSH and LH is regulated by two separate mechanisms, and that an ovarian inhibitory factor(s) attenuates the response of both FSH and LH to exogenous LHRH and possibly the endogenous LH surge in superovulated cycles.
Clin Endocrinol (Oxf) 1976 Mar;5(2):175-80 Related Articles, Links
Modulation of pituitary responsiveness to exogenous LHRH by an oestrogenic and an anti-oestrogenic compound in the normal male.
Dhont M, de Gezelle H, Vandekerckhove D.
The effect of clomiphene (100 mg daily for 10 days) and ethinyl oestradiol (100 mug daily for 10 days) on the gonadotrophin response to synthetic LHRH has been investigated in two groups of five normal males. A third group of five men served as control group. LHRH, 25 mug, was injected intravenously on days 0, 4, 7 and 10 and the response of serum LH and FSH was monitored by radioimmunoassay. In contrast to the wide inter-individual variation of the response pattern, the intra-individual variation of the response to LHRH in the control group was small.Clomiphene induced a significant elevation of the baseline levels of LH and FSH after a few days of treatment; the pituitary responsiveness to LHRH, however, was significantly reduced. Oestrogen treatment resulted in a uniform suppression of both basal gonadotrophin levels and pituitary responsiveness. The decreased gonadotrophin response to LHRH during clomiphene treatment is thought to be caused by a relative and temporary pituitary depletion of the releasable gonadotrophin content. Although the suppression of LH and FSH response during oestrogen treatment may point to a direct inhibitory effect of oestrogen on pituitary gonadotrophin release, an indirect hypothalamic pathway, through suppression of endogenous LHRH, cannot be ruled out.
J Clin Endocrinol Metab 1976 Mar;42(3):593-4 Related Articles, Links
Effect of clomiphene on basal and LRH-induced gonadotropin secretion in postmenopausal women.
Hashimoto T, Miyai K, Izumi K, Kumahara Y.
LRH tests were performed in 11 postmenopausal women before and after the administration of 200 mg of clomiphene citrate daily by mouth for 7 consecutive days. The basal levels and the maximum increments of serum LH (deltaLH) and the area under the response curve from basal level (deltaarea) after LRH administration, significantly (P less than 0.005) decreased after consecutive administration of this compound. Serum FSH levels were significantly (P less than 0.025) decreased but deltaFSH and deltaarea in LRH test were statistically unchanged. These results suggest that clomiphene citrate in postmenopausal women inhibits the pituitary gonadotropin response to exogenous LRH by its estrogenic effects.
Hayes et al., Aromatase Inhibition in the Human Male Reveals a Hypothalamic Site of Estrogen Feedback, JCEM Vol. 85, No. 9 3027-3035
http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/86/1/53
From the discussion:
...The increase in LH pulse amplitude, observed after aromatase inhibition, could potentially reflect an increase in the amplitude of GnRH pulses stimulating the pituitary, and/or enhanced pituitary sensitivity to the same amount of endogenous GnRH. Previous studies have attempted to distinguish between these two mechanisms by examining pituitary responsiveness to pharmacological doses of exogenous GnRH before and during antiestrogen therapy (11, 31, 32). These studies paradoxically demonstrated that clomiphene blunted pituitary responsiveness to exogenous GnRH despite increasing both mean LH levels and the amplitude of spontaneous LH pulses (11, 31, 32). The mechanism proposed for this divergence between spontaneous pulse height and acute pituitary responsiveness to exogenous GnRH was that clomiphene was having tissue-specific mixed agonist/antagonist effects. The authors concluded that clomiphene was acting as an estrogen antagonist at the hypothalamus, resulting in an increase in endogenous GnRH secretion, but as an estrogen agonist at the pituitary, causing decreased responsiveness to exogenous GnRH (11).
------------------------------
Some studies showing that Nolvadex increases pituitary responsiveness to LHRH:
Andrologia 1985 Jul-Aug;17(4):369-78 Effect of lower versus higher doses of tamoxifen on pituitary-gonadal function and sperm indices in oligozoospermic men.
Dony JM, Smals AG, Rolland R, Fauser BC, Thomas CM.
Administration of the antiestrogen tamoxifen for one month to 12 patients with idiopathic oligozoospermia significantly increased the mean basal testosterone (T) level and the responses of luteinizing hormone (LH) and follicle stimulating hormone (FSH) to constant luteinizing hormone releasing hormone (LHRH) infusion but did not significantly influence the mean oestradiol (E2) levels or the E2 over testosterone ratio...
---------------------
Fertil Steril 1978 Mar;29(3):320-7 Hormonal effects of an antiestrogen, tamoxifen, in normal and oligospermic men.
Vermeulen A, Comhaire F.
The administration of tamoxifen, 20 mg/day for 10 days, to normal males produced a moderate increase in luteinizing hormone (LH), follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH), testosterone, and estradiol levels, comparable to the effect of 150 mg of clomiphene citrate (Clomid). However, whereas Clomid produced a decrease in the LH response to LH-releasing hormone (LHRH), no such effect was seen after the administration of tamoxifen. In fact, prolonged treatment (6 weeks) with tamoxifen significantly increased the LH response to LHRH...
This is all from hhajdo:
They noticed a significant difference between Clomid and Nolvadex in their effect on LH response to GHRH...
That may or may not be important since we know that LH/test increase induced by Clomid can be sustained for a long time.
Similar effect of Clomid on pituitary response to LHRH was noticed in some other studies also:
Pituitary responsiveness to LHRH and TRH in men: effect of bromocriptine and clomiphene treatment.
Ronnberg L, Ylikorkala O.
The effect of the concomitant use of bromocriptine and clomiphene on pituitary function was tested in 8 healthy men, who ingested either 100 mg of clomiphene, 5 mg of bromocriptine or 100 mg of clomiphene +5 mg of bromocriptine daily for 7 days. Plasma concentrations of FSH and LH increased similarly during clomiphene and clomiphene + bromocriptine intake. Bromocriptine decreased the plasma levels of prolactin (Prl) and this decrease was unaffected by clomiphene.The latter blunted the plasma LH response to LHRH whilst bromocriptine blunted the Prl response to TRH, but Clomiphene and bromocriptine together had no additive effects on gonadotrophin and Prl secretion. It thus seems likely that this combination offers no advantage over clomiphene alone in the treatment of normoprolactinaemic infertile men
Pituitary response to exogenous LHRH in superovulated women.
Messinis IE, Templeton AA.
Department of Obstetrics and Gynaecology, University of Aberdeen, Foresterhill, UK.
The response of the pituitary to exogenous LHRH was investigated in 9 normally ovulating women during the late follicular phase of a spontaneous (control) cycle, a cycle during treatment with clomiphene and a cycle during treatment with 'pure' FSH. During clomiphene treatment, basal FSH concentrations increased significantly up to Day 6 of the cycle and then decreased progressively while basal LH values showed a continuous rise. During treatment with FSH, basal LH concentrations decreased significantly. The response of both FSH and LH to LHRH showed a significant and quantitatively similar decrease during clomiphene or FSH administration as compared to the spontaneous cycles. It is suggested that basal secretion of FSH and LH is regulated by two separate mechanisms, and that an ovarian inhibitory factor(s) attenuates the response of both FSH and LH to exogenous LHRH and possibly the endogenous LH surge in superovulated cycles.
Clin Endocrinol (Oxf) 1976 Mar;5(2):175-80 Related Articles, Links
Modulation of pituitary responsiveness to exogenous LHRH by an oestrogenic and an anti-oestrogenic compound in the normal male.
Dhont M, de Gezelle H, Vandekerckhove D.
The effect of clomiphene (100 mg daily for 10 days) and ethinyl oestradiol (100 mug daily for 10 days) on the gonadotrophin response to synthetic LHRH has been investigated in two groups of five normal males. A third group of five men served as control group. LHRH, 25 mug, was injected intravenously on days 0, 4, 7 and 10 and the response of serum LH and FSH was monitored by radioimmunoassay. In contrast to the wide inter-individual variation of the response pattern, the intra-individual variation of the response to LHRH in the control group was small.Clomiphene induced a significant elevation of the baseline levels of LH and FSH after a few days of treatment; the pituitary responsiveness to LHRH, however, was significantly reduced. Oestrogen treatment resulted in a uniform suppression of both basal gonadotrophin levels and pituitary responsiveness. The decreased gonadotrophin response to LHRH during clomiphene treatment is thought to be caused by a relative and temporary pituitary depletion of the releasable gonadotrophin content. Although the suppression of LH and FSH response during oestrogen treatment may point to a direct inhibitory effect of oestrogen on pituitary gonadotrophin release, an indirect hypothalamic pathway, through suppression of endogenous LHRH, cannot be ruled out.
J Clin Endocrinol Metab 1976 Mar;42(3):593-4 Related Articles, Links
Effect of clomiphene on basal and LRH-induced gonadotropin secretion in postmenopausal women.
Hashimoto T, Miyai K, Izumi K, Kumahara Y.
LRH tests were performed in 11 postmenopausal women before and after the administration of 200 mg of clomiphene citrate daily by mouth for 7 consecutive days. The basal levels and the maximum increments of serum LH (deltaLH) and the area under the response curve from basal level (deltaarea) after LRH administration, significantly (P less than 0.005) decreased after consecutive administration of this compound. Serum FSH levels were significantly (P less than 0.025) decreased but deltaFSH and deltaarea in LRH test were statistically unchanged. These results suggest that clomiphene citrate in postmenopausal women inhibits the pituitary gonadotropin response to exogenous LRH by its estrogenic effects.
Hayes et al., Aromatase Inhibition in the Human Male Reveals a Hypothalamic Site of Estrogen Feedback, JCEM Vol. 85, No. 9 3027-3035
http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/86/1/53
From the discussion:
...The increase in LH pulse amplitude, observed after aromatase inhibition, could potentially reflect an increase in the amplitude of GnRH pulses stimulating the pituitary, and/or enhanced pituitary sensitivity to the same amount of endogenous GnRH. Previous studies have attempted to distinguish between these two mechanisms by examining pituitary responsiveness to pharmacological doses of exogenous GnRH before and during antiestrogen therapy (11, 31, 32). These studies paradoxically demonstrated that clomiphene blunted pituitary responsiveness to exogenous GnRH despite increasing both mean LH levels and the amplitude of spontaneous LH pulses (11, 31, 32). The mechanism proposed for this divergence between spontaneous pulse height and acute pituitary responsiveness to exogenous GnRH was that clomiphene was having tissue-specific mixed agonist/antagonist effects. The authors concluded that clomiphene was acting as an estrogen antagonist at the hypothalamus, resulting in an increase in endogenous GnRH secretion, but as an estrogen agonist at the pituitary, causing decreased responsiveness to exogenous GnRH (11).
------------------------------
Some studies showing that Nolvadex increases pituitary responsiveness to LHRH:
Andrologia 1985 Jul-Aug;17(4):369-78 Effect of lower versus higher doses of tamoxifen on pituitary-gonadal function and sperm indices in oligozoospermic men.
Dony JM, Smals AG, Rolland R, Fauser BC, Thomas CM.
Administration of the antiestrogen tamoxifen for one month to 12 patients with idiopathic oligozoospermia significantly increased the mean basal testosterone (T) level and the responses of luteinizing hormone (LH) and follicle stimulating hormone (FSH) to constant luteinizing hormone releasing hormone (LHRH) infusion but did not significantly influence the mean oestradiol (E2) levels or the E2 over testosterone ratio...
---------------------
Fertil Steril 1978 Mar;29(3):320-7 Hormonal effects of an antiestrogen, tamoxifen, in normal and oligospermic men.
Vermeulen A, Comhaire F.
The administration of tamoxifen, 20 mg/day for 10 days, to normal males produced a moderate increase in luteinizing hormone (LH), follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH), testosterone, and estradiol levels, comparable to the effect of 150 mg of clomiphene citrate (Clomid). However, whereas Clomid produced a decrease in the LH response to LH-releasing hormone (LHRH), no such effect was seen after the administration of tamoxifen. In fact, prolonged treatment (6 weeks) with tamoxifen significantly increased the LH response to LHRH...
einstein1905 said:Very good find. Help me out now, and sniff out the study that suggests clomiphene's specificity for the suprapituitary/hypothalamus now
Captain Planet
New Member
I imagine this debate will never end till some new studies comparing the two are done.........Both sides have arguements, and a lot of guys just use both now.
If anyone knows this, please post: Is the occulotoxicity of clomid permenant? I get mixed reports, yet I have never seen a study or medical journal saying the effects of clomid on the eyse is or is not permanant.....
Thanks
If anyone knows this, please post: Is the occulotoxicity of clomid permenant? I get mixed reports, yet I have never seen a study or medical journal saying the effects of clomid on the eyse is or is not permanant.....
Thanks
Can't quote a study, but I read people assume clomid can't be taken for long periods of time because it's only handed out for 3 weeks generally... but the thing is that's prescriptions for promoting female ovulation, obviously not necessary one week a month.
I also read elsewhere that it can be taken for up to 3/4 of a year, but have never read anything about permanent toxic buildup.
I'll keep that question in mind as I read more research.
I also read elsewhere that it can be taken for up to 3/4 of a year, but have never read anything about permanent toxic buildup.
I'll keep that question in mind as I read more research.
Captain Planet said:
einstein1905
New Member
I hear all too often "I use nolva and it works fine for me". Yes, it may work fine, but relative to what? I stock Camaro is fast.....but a stock Viper is faster. Just because something works, doesn't mean something else doesn't work better. The point is, that the studies that favor nolva are for unrealistically long durations.....as soon as someone adresses this, then there may be a debate. Until then, there isn't much question as to which is better suited for our purposes. That being said, I still use clomid, nolva and Ldex, as they all contribute to recovering HPTA function faster.
Clomids brain activity is the exact reason I hate it. Many guys say clom works better to restore hpta function and I believe them..I'll never know cause it just makes me a bitch. Nolv doesn't and it seems to bring my boys back so, I'm not arguing that nolv is better, it's better for me though just cause I get sides with clom
my .02
my .02
einstein1905
New Member
This IS a valid point. Clomid does have some sides in some that just don't make it worthwhile for them....I respect that.scrappy said:
juiceman1001
New Member
einstein1905 said:
what does you typical HPTA recovery protocol look like
boz_hardwick
New Member
Great Article
Great article on Clomid vs. Nolvadex. I prefer Noladex, it works great for me.
joe5572 said:
Great article on Clomid vs. Nolvadex. I prefer Noladex, it works great for me.
einstein1905
New Member
juiceman1001 said:
HCG at 500IU E4D for ~5 weeks so that the final HCG inject is 48hrs from the start of clomid. Clomid at 100mg/day for 4-5 weeks, depending on the length of the cycle. Adex at 0.25mg/day for 4-5 weeks. Nolva at 20mg/day usually one week past the clomid (i.e. 5-6 weeks). My cycles are 20+ weeks each time though
