Not sure if right subforum but question about rebuilding cartilage

[Country Club Hero]

My right knee is missing some cartilage. It all started about 3-4 years ago when I was high dosing kratom. It eventually turned on me and started causing crazy inflammation that manifested mostly in my knee. Went to bed one night fine and woke up with a swollen knee and problems ever since. Had a MRI and it said I have bony overgrowth. I attribute that to taking 4-5iu HGH for years when knee was inflamed.

Anyways, I have all but eliminated the inflammation. I’d like to systemically nuke it with something like glutathione. But I’m wondering if cartilage can be rebuilt without surgery. Collagen, collustrum, matcha…. Anything to rebuild it. I’ve tried bpc157 several times before and it works great but I can’t handle the anhedonia caused by it. Tb500 don’t do much for me. Anything else for cartilage production or is surgery required? Thanks.

 

[Superchicken]

Pentosan polysulfate might help depending on severity.

 

[iris]

From what I know, there is nothing that just regrows cartilage.
I wish.
They try to sell stuff like prp and stem cell treatments for it.
But whether they are actually worth it, idk.
From what I read, prp is not useful.
As for stem cells, it's glowing reviews from the clinics and their patients and the actual studies i have come across have been conducted on pigs.
Showing promise, but idk.

 

[Ghoul]

My right knee is missing some cartilage. It all started about 3-4 years ago when I was high dosing kratom. It eventually turned on me and started causing crazy inflammation that manifested mostly in my knee. Went to bed one night fine and woke up with a swollen knee and problems ever since. Had a MRI and it said I have bony overgrowth. I attribute that to taking 4-5iu HGH for years when knee was inflamed.

Anyways, I have all but eliminated the inflammation. I’d like to systemically nuke it with something like glutathione. But I’m wondering if cartilage can be rebuilt without surgery. Collagen, collustrum, matcha…. Anything to rebuild it. I’ve tried bpc157 several times before and it works great but I can’t handle the anhedonia caused by it. Tb500 don’t do much for me. Anything else for cartilage production or is surgery required? Thanks.

There are half a dozen really effective methods to fix this with minimally invasive surgery, in and out in hours.

No, a small town surgeon is unlikely to be well versed on the latest tech, and in my experience those pricks will put their interest above yours if they can't do a particular procedure. You're a boat payment. Most docs, if they're honest, will acknowledge this is the reality.

Reshaping the Future of Cartilage Repair | CONMED

Discover the CartiMax Viable Cartilage Allograft, a ready-to-use, off-the-shelf combination of viable cartilage fibers and a cartilage allograft matrix that can help you deliver success. It offers simple preparation and an easy technique in orthopedic knee, foot, and ankle procedures.

www.conmed.com

Find a specialist at a university affiliated specialty or research hospital and get a referral to see someone there.

Don't waste time because once the window of opportunity for repair has passed, knee replacement is the only option.

Ready for the magic words?

"I want the most effective, durable procedure that restores my knee as close to full function as possible."

 

[Country Club Hero]

There are half a dozen really effective methods to fix this with minimally invasive surgery, in and out in hours.

No, a small town surgeon is unlikely to be well versed on the latest tech, and in my experience those pricks will put their interest above yours if they can't do a particular procedure. You're a boat payment. Most docs, if they're honest, will acknowledge this is the reality.

Reshaping the Future of Cartilage Repair | CONMED

Discover the CartiMax Viable Cartilage Allograft, a ready-to-use, off-the-shelf combination of viable cartilage fibers and a cartilage allograft matrix that can help you deliver success. It offers simple preparation and an easy technique in orthopedic knee, foot, and ankle procedures.

www.conmed.com

Find a specialist at a university affiliated specialty or research hospital and get a referral to see someone there.

Don't waste time because once the window of opportunity for repair has passed, knee replacement is the only option.

Ready for the magic words?

"I want the most effective, durable procedure that restores my knee as close to full function as possible."

I have VA insurance but I’ve taken advantage of the local program option they offer. Basically since the nearest VA hospital is 2 hours away i can pick a local GP and use him to refer me to specialist. Thanks

 

[Ghoul]

I have VA insurance but I’ve taken advantage of the local program option they offer. Basically since the nearest VA hospital is 2 hours away i can pick a local GP and use him to refer me to specialist. Thanks

Thank god these crybabies didn't get their way and stop that program

Trump Administration Plots Costly Private-Care Expansion for Veterans

The plan sets up a clash with Democrats, who say the administration is thwarting congressional intent and will starve the VA health system to pay for private care.

www.propublica.org

 

[readalot]

Been bringing this up for years without much reception. Maybe here we can get some discussion going.

There is a commercial product out there (forgot the name). Too bad for humans that horses get better treatment than humans but good for horses. More money in racehorses than using a rational (anabolic drug instead of catabolic one injected into the joint) approach for humans with off patent drug. I am fascinated by the cytokine balance in the avascular joint. Only one way to get a med in there.

Effect of a single intra-articular administration of stanozolol in a naturally occurring canine osteoarthritis model: a randomised trial - Scientific Reports

Osteoarthritis (OA) is a disease with a high negative impact on patient’s quality of life and a high financial burden. It is a source of chronic pain and affects all mammals, including humans and dogs. As the dog is a common model for translation research of human OA, and exploring spontaneous...

www.nature.com

A Pilot Study of the Clinical Effectiveness of a Single Intra-Articular Injection of Stanozolol in Canines with Knee Degenerative Joint Disease and Its Correlation with Serum Interleukin-1β Levels

Stanozolol shows promise as an anabolic and anti-catabolic agent for treating degenerative joint disease (DJD). This study assessed the clinical efficacy of a single intra-articular stanozolol injection in canine knees with DJD and its correlation with serum IL-1β levels. Thirty dogs (n = 30)...

www.mdpi.com

https://ker.com/equinews/stanzolol-horses-osteoarthritis/

Using Stanozolol as a Joint Therapy in Horses

While prohibited in competition horses, this anabolic steroid might help vets manage joint disease such as osteochondrosis lesions in young horses.

thehorse.com

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0737080615005110

I'll have to find the name of the commercial intra-articular injection product for horses. Probably would help to befriend a horse trainer. The injection itself shouldn't be too bad.

Edit: here it is...

AEC Client Education - Sungate®

Everything you wanted to know about the Sungate case

Sungate is the drug at the centre of the latest Newmarket drug scandal.

www.telegraph.co.uk

 

[iris]

Too bad for humans that horses get better treatment than humans but good for horses.

Lest we forget they also get a bit of EQ.

Thank you for this, it's great.
I will have a look at it, later today.
So easy to damage cartilage.
Iirc Roger Federer tore his meniscus (at home, of all places) and I think he'd had surgery, even before then, but he managed to return to sport.
Of course, the best medical care, for elite athletes.
I was like join the club. It ain't great and osteoarthritis is on the horizon.
If a way to regrow cartilage within the joint itself were found, it would lead to a much better quality of life for so many people.
Being able to continue moving normally and be pain free would make an outstanding difference, that's for sure.
But, for now, a way to reduce inflammation that does not require corticosteroids would be welcome.
Equines are one step ahead.

 

[readalot]

Lest we forget they also get a bit of EQ.

Thank you for this, it's great.
I will have a look at it, later today.
So easy to damage cartilage.
Iirc Roger Federer tore his meniscus (at home, of all places) and I think he'd had surgery, even before then, but he managed to return to sport.
Of course, the best medical care, for elite athletes.
I was like join the club. It ain't great and osteoarthritis is on the horizon.
If a way to regrow cartilage within the joint itself where found, it would lead to a much better quality of life for so many people.
Being able to continue moving normally and be pain free would make an outstanding difference, that's for sure.
But, for now, a way to reduce inflammation that does not require corticosteroids would be welcome.
Equines are one step ahead.

Both my medial meniscus are gone. Currently cruising the local horse training parks. Will report back.

 

[buck]

I have tried most all recommended supps as well as peptides for cartilage problems and got zero benefit from them. Once things get to a certain point surgery is the only treatment left i find. And trying to rebuild while also continuing the activities that caused the loss sees like chasing ones own tail at best. Right now i am bone on bone in my shoulder and the cartilage is not going to come back. didn't come back for other issues in the past either. In the long run i find you have to pay to play.

 

[UncleBuns]

Been bringing this up for years without much reception. Maybe here we can get some discussion going.

There is a commercial product out there (forgot the name). Too bad for humans that horses get better treatment than humans but good for horses. More money in racehorses than using a rational (anabolic drug instead of catabolic one injected into the joint) approach for humans with off patent drug. I am fascinated by the cytokine balance in the avascular joint. Only one way to get a med in there.

Effect of a single intra-articular administration of stanozolol in a naturally occurring canine osteoarthritis model: a randomised trial - Scientific Reports

Osteoarthritis (OA) is a disease with a high negative impact on patient’s quality of life and a high financial burden. It is a source of chronic pain and affects all mammals, including humans and dogs. As the dog is a common model for translation research of human OA, and exploring spontaneous...

www.nature.com

A Pilot Study of the Clinical Effectiveness of a Single Intra-Articular Injection of Stanozolol in Canines with Knee Degenerative Joint Disease and Its Correlation with Serum Interleukin-1β Levels

Stanozolol shows promise as an anabolic and anti-catabolic agent for treating degenerative joint disease (DJD). This study assessed the clinical efficacy of a single intra-articular stanozolol injection in canine knees with DJD and its correlation with serum IL-1β levels. Thirty dogs (n = 30)...

www.mdpi.com

https://ker.com/equinews/stanzolol-horses-osteoarthritis/

Using Stanozolol as a Joint Therapy in Horses

While prohibited in competition horses, this anabolic steroid might help vets manage joint disease such as osteochondrosis lesions in young horses.

thehorse.com

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0737080615005110

I'll have to find the name of the commercial intra-articular injection product for horses. Probably would help to befriend a horse trainer. The injection itself shouldn't be too bad.

Edit: here it is...

AEC Client Education - Sungate®

Everything you wanted to know about the Sungate case

Sungate is the drug at the centre of the latest Newmarket drug scandal.

www.telegraph.co.uk

In people Stanozolol has been shown to put joints at higher risk of injury and have significantly more negative effects on joints than positive. It does increase collagen production but disrupts collagen from forming its normal matrix. So, It can cause, for example larger tendons but the tendons are malformed so actually weaker. If you have any kind of tendon or joint issues I would definitely steer clear of Stanozolol.

Stanozolol Insights: Unique Characteristics of Anabolic-Androgenic Steroids – Part 2

Learn the unique features of Stanozolol (Winstrol), an anabolic steroid with enhanced half-life, IGF-I modulation, glucocorticoid effects, and joint pain.

thinksteroids.com

Anabolic Steroids and Growth Hormone: Their Impact on Bones, Tendons, Ligaments, and Joints

Learn how anabolic steroids and human growth hormone (RhGH) affect bones, tendons, ligaments, and joints, focusing on collagen metabolism.

thinksteroids.com

 

[iris]

In people Stanozolol has been shown to put joints at higher risk of injury and have significantly more negative effects on joints than positive. It does increase collagen production but disrupts collagen from forming its normal matrix. So, It can cause, for example larger tendons but the tendons are malformed so actually weaker. If you have any kind of tendon or joint issues I would definitely steer clear of Stanozolol.

Stanozolol Insights: Unique Characteristics of Anabolic-Androgenic Steroids – Part 2

Learn the unique features of Stanozolol (Winstrol), an anabolic steroid with enhanced half-life, IGF-I modulation, glucocorticoid effects, and joint pain.

thinksteroids.com

Anabolic Steroids and Growth Hormone: Their Impact on Bones, Tendons, Ligaments, and Joints

Learn how anabolic steroids and human growth hormone (RhGH) affect bones, tendons, ligaments, and joints, focusing on collagen metabolism.

thinksteroids.com

So this would create further collagen damage for the gentleman, you are saying?

 

[readalot]

In people Stanozolol has been shown to put joints at higher risk of injury and have significantly more negative effects on joints than positive. It does increase collagen production but disrupts collagen from forming its normal matrix. So, It can cause, for example larger tendons but the tendons are malformed so actually weaker. If you have any kind of tendon or joint issues I would definitely steer clear of Stanozolol.

Stanozolol Insights: Unique Characteristics of Anabolic-Androgenic Steroids – Part 2

Learn the unique features of Stanozolol (Winstrol), an anabolic steroid with enhanced half-life, IGF-I modulation, glucocorticoid effects, and joint pain.

thinksteroids.com

Anabolic Steroids and Growth Hormone: Their Impact on Bones, Tendons, Ligaments, and Joints

Learn how anabolic steroids and human growth hormone (RhGH) affect bones, tendons, ligaments, and joints, focusing on collagen metabolism.

thinksteroids.com

What is the method of administration in the papers I linked vs what you linked?

 

[UncleBuns]

What is the method of administration in the papers I linked vs what you linked?

You think injecting it into the joint will have a different response? It's the same compound. If you take it orally or inject it it's going to have the same effect.

 

[UncleBuns]

So this would create further collagen damage for the gentleman, you are saying?

Nothing is guaranteed. I think it would definitely put you at a higher probability of making the problem worse.

 

[readalot]

In people Stanozolol has been shown to put joints at higher risk of injury and have significantly more negative effects on joints than positive. It does increase collagen production but disrupts collagen from forming its normal matrix. So, It can cause, for example larger tendons but the tendons are malformed so actually weaker. If you have any kind of tendon or joint issues I would definitely steer clear of Stanozolol.

Stanozolol Insights: Unique Characteristics of Anabolic-Androgenic Steroids – Part 2

Learn the unique features of Stanozolol (Winstrol), an anabolic steroid with enhanced half-life, IGF-I modulation, glucocorticoid effects, and joint pain.

thinksteroids.com

Anabolic Steroids and Growth Hormone: Their Impact on Bones, Tendons, Ligaments, and Joints

Learn how anabolic steroids and human growth hormone (RhGH) affect bones, tendons, ligaments, and joints, focusing on collagen metabolism.

thinksteroids.com

I see T2X did include this reference in his writeup....

8] Spadari, A., Romagnoli, N., Predieri, P. G., Borghetti, P., Cantoni, A. M., and Corradi, A. (2013). Effects of intraarticular treatment with stanozolol on synovial membrane and cartilage in an ovine model of osteoarthritis. Research in Veterinary Science, 94(3), 379–387.

I'll have to read more thoroughly to see if intra-articular injection mode is covered there.

 

[readalot]

You think injecting it into the joint will have a different response? It's the same compound. If you take it orally or inject it it's going to have the same effect.

Two main modes of admin....
Oral
IM injection

The joint (especially the knee capsule) is avascular. How would stanozolol make it to the joint? I'd be curious if intra-articular administration manifests very differently than methods above. The work to date and anecdotes in horses suggests it may be.

 

[UncleBuns]

Two main modes of admin....
Oral
IM injection

The joint (especially the knee capsule) is avascular. How would stanozolol make it to the joint? I'd be curious if intra-articular administration manifests very differently than methods above. The work to date and anecdotes in horses suggests it may be.

Since the negative effects are because of direct interaction of the compound with the tissues and cells in the joint. I don't think it's going to matter with the route of administration is. I would speculate that injecting it directly into the joint will cause a higher concentration in the joint and would exacerbate the negative effects.

I don't know much about horses. There are studies in humans though in that data is pretty straightforward.

 

[readalot]

There are studies in humans though in that data is pretty straightforward.

None with this method of admin.

See discussion. Stanozolol will come out of joint capsule into plasma but much harder to get in (concentration gradient). There's a whole array of cytokine effects (competing effects that are concentration dependent) that may be method of admin dependent. Thanks for the links.

Effect of a single intra-articular administration of stanozolol in a naturally occurring canine osteoarthritis model: a randomised trial - Scientific Reports

Osteoarthritis (OA) is a disease with a high negative impact on patient’s quality of life and a high financial burden. It is a source of chronic pain and affects all mammals, including humans and dogs. As the dog is a common model for translation research of human OA, and exploring spontaneous...

www.nature.com

 

[iris]

You think injecting it into the joint will have a different response? It's the same compound. If you take it orally or inject it it's going to have the same effect.

Systemic or local is the same thing, so it is about the substance itself, you say.
Do you think that trying it locally for anti inflammatory purposes and seeing how the joint reacts would be worth it, though?
Could it be worse than corticosteroids?