Not sure if right subforum but question about rebuilding cartilage

[readalot]

Systemic or local is the same thing, so it is about the substance itself, you say.

The human knee: A window on the microvasculature - PMC

In synovial joints, the lining cells do not have tight junctions with their neighboring cells and they have no underlying basement membrane. Therefore, the synovial fluid within the articular cavity is continuous with the interstitial fluid of the ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

See Section The Ischemic Knee

 

[Country Club Hero]

Been bringing this up for years without much reception. Maybe here we can get some discussion going.

There is a commercial product out there (forgot the name). Too bad for humans that horses get better treatment than humans but good for horses. More money in racehorses than using a rational (anabolic drug instead of catabolic one injected into the joint) approach for humans with off patent drug. I am fascinated by the cytokine balance in the avascular joint. Only one way to get a med in there.

Effect of a single intra-articular administration of stanozolol in a naturally occurring canine osteoarthritis model: a randomised trial - Scientific Reports

Osteoarthritis (OA) is a disease with a high negative impact on patient’s quality of life and a high financial burden. It is a source of chronic pain and affects all mammals, including humans and dogs. As the dog is a common model for translation research of human OA, and exploring spontaneous...

www.nature.com

A Pilot Study of the Clinical Effectiveness of a Single Intra-Articular Injection of Stanozolol in Canines with Knee Degenerative Joint Disease and Its Correlation with Serum Interleukin-1β Levels

Stanozolol shows promise as an anabolic and anti-catabolic agent for treating degenerative joint disease (DJD). This study assessed the clinical efficacy of a single intra-articular stanozolol injection in canine knees with DJD and its correlation with serum IL-1β levels. Thirty dogs (n = 30)...

www.mdpi.com

https://ker.com/equinews/stanzolol-horses-osteoarthritis/

Using Stanozolol as a Joint Therapy in Horses

While prohibited in competition horses, this anabolic steroid might help vets manage joint disease such as osteochondrosis lesions in young horses.

thehorse.com

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0737080615005110

I'll have to find the name of the commercial intra-articular injection product for horses. Probably would help to befriend a horse trainer. The injection itself shouldn't be too bad.

Edit: here it is...

AEC Client Education - Sungate®

Everything you wanted to know about the Sungate case

Sungate is the drug at the centre of the latest Newmarket drug scandal.

www.telegraph.co.uk

Interesting. Would have never imagined Winny being any type of healing substance for joints but I’m intrigued.

Have you tried to repair or replace cartilage yourself?

 

[Country Club Hero]

In people Stanozolol has been shown to put joints at higher risk of injury and have significantly more negative effects on joints than positive. It does increase collagen production but disrupts collagen from forming its normal matrix. So, It can cause, for example larger tendons but the tendons are malformed so actually weaker. If you have any kind of tendon or joint issues I would definitely steer clear of Stanozolol.

Stanozolol Insights: Unique Characteristics of Anabolic-Androgenic Steroids – Part 2

Learn the unique features of Stanozolol (Winstrol), an anabolic steroid with enhanced half-life, IGF-I modulation, glucocorticoid effects, and joint pain.

thinksteroids.com

Anabolic Steroids and Growth Hormone: Their Impact on Bones, Tendons, Ligaments, and Joints

Learn how anabolic steroids and human growth hormone (RhGH) affect bones, tendons, ligaments, and joints, focusing on collagen metabolism.

thinksteroids.com

Fascinating actually

 

[Country Club Hero]

Shit, at this point I’m willing to take 2 weeks off of work and just inject bpc157 and winny to random areas around the knee multiple times a day. Maybe a week of benzos to basically stay in zombie/healing mode.

I have my own business, no kids or anyone else I’m responsible for right now so I can actually do this guilt free.

I guess if I’m off work and laying out of gym for a week or two I can handle the anhedonia. No matter how severe. Because I know that stuff works and I would love to fix all this without using any doctors of any kind.

So:
bpc157
Winstrol
HGH
Glutathione

Lounging and putting the joint through basic movements throughout the day.

I bet that would do wonders in a short period of time

 

[readalot]

Interesting. Would have never imagined Winny being any type of healing substance for joints but I’m intrigued.

Have you tried to repair or replace cartilage yourself?

Never, but with meniscus gone I am evaluating all my options to try to keep activity where it was. Thanks for taking a look.

 

[readalot]

Shit, at this point I’m willing to take 2 weeks off of work and just inject bpc157 and winny to random areas around the knee multiple times a day. Maybe a week of benzos to basically stay in zombie/healing mode.

I have my own business, no kids or anyone else I’m responsible for right now so I can actually do this guilt free.

I guess if I’m off work and laying out of gym for a week or two I can handle the anhedonia. No matter how severe. Because I know that stuff works and I would love to fix all this without using any doctors of any kind.

So:
bpc157
Winstrol
HGH
Glutathione

Lounging and putting the joint through basic movements throughout the day.

I bet that would do wonders in a short period of time

IA knee injection a little more difficult than just hitting spots around knee. Educational only.


View: https://youtu.be/eBFSs0ITaqM



View: https://youtu.be/NsXB-mnhA3c


I will continue to do my due diligence. Even a significant reduction in inflammation for my complex tear would be beneficial. Best wishes on getting some relief.

 

[readalot]

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-022-09934-y.pdf

Pdf.

 

[readalot]

https://www.isvma.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/LessCommonlyUsedJointTherapies.pdf

Less frequently utilized joint therapies including Stanozolol and Pentosan.

Scott McClure, DVM, PhD, DACVS, DACVSMR
Midwest Equine Surgery and Sports Medicine, Boone, IA, 50036

 

[iris]

Never, but with meniscus gone I am evaluating all my options to try to keep activity where it was. Thanks for taking a look.

How badly is it affecting you?
Does the knee lock?

If you ice it a lot when it is sore, does the pain subside, like the day after?
I know a couple of people that have been running (amateur, in England) with meniscus tears for years and they would never consider surgery.
Somehow, they manage.

Obviously, everyone's situation is different.
But if surgery can be avoided, I would always go for that.
I mean, you are going to develop osteoarthritis to a certain extent anyway.

Thank you so much Readalot, you always contribute with something amazing.
You are a treasure and always so generous.

 

[readalot]

AAEP 2022: Horse Health and Research

From PPID to PAAG and AMA to PRP, there were a lot of discussions at the 2022 AAEP Convention of treatments for our equine patients.

equimanagement.com

See section...

Intra-Articular Stanozolol

basically a repeat of ISVMA pdf above.

 

[readalot]

How badly is it affecting you?
Does the knee lock?

If you ice it a lot when it is sore, does the pain subside, like the day after?
I know a couple of people that have been running (amateur, in England) with meniscus tears for years and they would never consider surgery.
Somehow, they manage.

Obviously, everyone's situation is different.
But if surgery can be avoided, I would always go for that.
I mean, you are going to develop osteoarthritis to a certain extent anyway.

Thank you so much Readalot, you always contribute with something amazing.
You are a treasure and always so generous.

I can still train on it but it swells up pretty good for up to week if I go too heavy. Humbling but I use weight training for mental health and can't give up leg day. I can still bike and moving to more elliptical. One of those heavy powerlifting sleeves helps a bit.

I don't plan on any surgery as with my complex tear surgery associated with no better outcome. Trying to hold on to all the tissue I can and fortunately it's just the medial. The lateral are ok.

Thanks for your kind words. It is a pleasure to have met you here. Keep up all the great work.

 

[iris]

I can still train on it but it swells up pretty good for up to week if I go too heavy. Humbling but I use weight training for mental health and can't give up leg day. I can still bike and moving to more elliptical. One of those heavy powerlifting sleeves helps a bit.

I don't plan on any surgery as with my complex tear surgery associated with no better outcome. Trying to hold on to all the tissue I can and fortunately it's just the medial. The lateral are ok.

Thanks for your kind words. It is a pleasure to have met you here. Keep up all the great work.

I ice it until it is black and blue.
Most of the times, it does help.
Temporarily, of course, but better than nothing.
Keeping mobility is the best thing, so you are doing well, there.
The bike is good, also.
Thank you.
X

 

[readalot]

https://paulickreport.com/horse-care-category/anabolic-steroid-can-help-repair-joint-issues-in-horses-but-use-with-caution

Sungate 1 ml

Regenerative therapy in aseptic joint diseases of the horse, characterized by degeneration of articular cartilage and synovial membrane with altered articular function

www.grovet.com

Composition
Micronized stanozolol 5 mg/ml

Indication

Regenerative therapy in aseptic joint diseases of the horse, characterized by degeneration of articular cartilage and synovial membrane with altered articular function; Also associated with the production of synovial fluid with poor or altered viscoelastic characteristics.

NOTES
Positive clinical effects may present in time-frames that vary according to the stage of evolution and the gravity of the disease. In chronic joint disease, clinical improvement may take place as much as one month after the end of treatment and subsequently consolidate through a slow but constant progression. This latent period can be explained by the time needed for the medicinal product’s regenerative action to take effect. Rehabilitation exercises shorten the time needed for tissue regeneration and the reduction of symptoms.

Dosage

Solution for intraarticular injection. The dosage varies according to the size of the joint to be treated.

Do not exceed recommended doses:

- 1ml of suspension equal to 5 mg of stanozolol in medium-sized joints (e.g. tarsal joint, fetlock) once weekly. Weekly administration can be repeated up to six times, according to the severity and evolutionary stage of the joint disease.
- In smaller joints (the joints of ponies or foals or interphalangeal joints), reduce the dose proportionately to 1.0 – 2.5 mg.

 

[Country Club Hero]

Thought I’d update. I’m actually going to try and use:

Anavar
Winstrol
Bpc157
HGH

Planning on taking about 10-14 days off work and training. Just going to lounge around consuming and injecting these compounds while periodically working the knee through different ranges of motion.

I will start the entire process each day with a massage gun in and around the knee. Even up into the quad and down into the calf. Front and back of leg. And I will try and manually massage that synovial fluid around kneecap prior to using the drugs so I know I have full blood flowing through the knee and allowing the drugs to hopefully work more effectively.

I think this may actually work since I’ve eliminated the inflammation that led to things breaking down in the knee. Hope so at least. I hate having one upper leg larger than the one that has atrophied from the damage. I hate not having near perfect symmetry in my limbs and muscles. It’s maddening.

 

[Pandapanda]

None with this method of admin.

See discussion. Stanozolol will come out of joint capsule into plasma but much harder to get in (concentration gradient). There's a whole array of cytokine effects (competing effects that are concentration dependent) that may be method of admin dependent. Thanks for the links.

Effect of a single intra-articular administration of stanozolol in a naturally occurring canine osteoarthritis model: a randomised trial - Scientific Reports

Osteoarthritis (OA) is a disease with a high negative impact on patient’s quality of life and a high financial burden. It is a source of chronic pain and affects all mammals, including humans and dogs. As the dog is a common model for translation research of human OA, and exploring spontaneous...

www.nature.com

OK, some great info here. I am dealing with a Complex Horizontal tear of the Lateral Meniscus, I have been looking far and low to determine if I could find a non-surgical process to improve my injury.
I don't post a lot here, but use this site and others for research and found this thread interesting.

In this study, and from what i can tell the others noted, the amount of Stanozolol used was not administered daily, rather essentially weekly.

The studies are specific to indicate intra-articular, which I think is key (same as what is done with Cirtisol, Hylauronic acid, etc), I don't believe oral administration nor IM would be sufficient.

That said, I have been using BPC-157 2 x a day for the last two weeks (and noticing improvements in movement and flex). That said, something that I'd really be curious to see would be adding Stanozolol to the BPC every 7th day, having that injected intra-articular?
I do know, intra-articular is a special type of injection that should be done by a doctor with the right knowledge of administration, so doing this at home would be very ill advised for someone without that specific knowledge.

Alas, as of now, I fear the BPC is really my only choice. I may add some Deca to my TRT (I'm not a fake TRT user, been on for 22yrs due to injury to my little boys when I was young diagnosed by an Endo with yearly checkups).

If anyone has other thoughts on tendon or meniscus tears, I'm am fully open to hear them.

Cheers,
PP